I actually thought!

mic · #1

Hi,

...at least I thought and read much more than I usually do. Although I won this game in the end I felt that is was quite close and that I did many mistakes. Therefore I'd appreciate it if L19² readers could comment on the game, especially if you see types of mistakes I repeatedly do.

Thanks in advance and good game,
mic

Edit: After I looked at the game with KGS's score estimator it was far from close and white was leading by a lot, which makes me even more interested in the mistakes I did!

daniel_the_smith · #2

White played the worst way possible in the upper left!

First black move I have a big problem with is 45. Perfect example of the sort of "armpit hit" you should never play. If you want to play in that area, I think the move is on the second line under white's stone.

amnal · #3

Moves 45 and 47 hurt to watch. Instead of aiming at any of white's weak points, you spend two moves to fix them for him - without gaining any territory (although white starts a fight when he doesn't need to, I think).

You should be aiming at areas like the 3-3 point and one space below 47. Your way of playing gives white points for no return.

Joaz Banbeck · #4

25: You have no weak groups, you have kicked his butt in the top left :clap:

, and you have sente. You have the opportunity to take control of the game.

C13 is not urgent: it does not affect the life or death of your group.
It is not big: it is 12+/- points in gote, which is small at this stage of the game.

The bottom side is big. You could try F3. The top may be urgent. You could play L16.

26: Ouch. This is big.

77: Let's try a little tewari analysis. If the position were like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$. . . . . . . | $$. . . X . . . | $$. . . . . . . | $$. . . X . . . | $$. . . . X . . | $$. . . O . . . | $$. . . . X . . | $$. . . . . . . |[/go]

...and he pushed like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$. . . . . . . | $$. . . X . . . | $$. . . . . . . | $$. . . X . . . | $$. . . . X . . | $$. . . O 1 . . | $$. . . . X . . | $$. . . . . . . |[/go]

...you would block like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$. . . . . . . | $$. . . X . . . | $$. . . . . . . | $$. . . X . . . | $$. . . . X . . | $$. . . O 1 2 . | $$. . . . X . . | $$. . . . . . . |[/go]

...right?

117: Unless you have read out a certain semeai win, go for moves that strengthen yourself rather than moves that endanger him. The shape moves at P18 or O18 look like good candidates. I'm too lazy to read it all, but I think that you get a ko after P18.

121: Why? You are in no hurry to play there. He can't play there himself - it is suicide. Save it for a ko threat.

129: M7 does the same thing, and is a bit stronger.

137: You are voluntarily becoming heavy. Try K12 or G11 or H10.

143: H11

ez4u · #5

You thought for 1 minute 41 seconds before playing 33. I would be interested to know what you thought about. What else did you consider? How did you assess the relative strengths and weaknesses at this point?

mic · #6

Joaz Banbeck wrote:

25: Ouch. This is big.

Which move do you mean?

Quote:

76: Let's try a little tewari analysis. If the position were like this:
...
...right?

Right

@all
Thanks for the comments, especially moves 45 and 47 now look terrible.

- mic

mic · #7

ez4u wrote:

You thought for 1 minute 41 seconds before playing 33. I would be interested to know what you thought about. What else did you consider? How did you assess the relative strengths and weaknesses at this point?

First, I was afraid to have to run with my group at C6. So, let's connect with the top left side. But
I wasn't sure if I could connect underneath, because on the one hand there's the tesuji for it, but on the other there could be some aji of the C14 stones. That's what I tried to read out.

Honestly, I looked shortly at Q10 and L16 but maybe was a bit too afraid to play elsewhere.

- mic

ez4u · #8

mic wrote:

ez4u wrote:

You thought for 1 minute 41 seconds before playing 33. I would be interested to know what you thought about. What else did you consider? How did you assess the relative strengths and weaknesses at this point?

First, I was afraid to have to run with my group at C6. So, let's connect with the top left side. But
I wasn't sure if I could connect underneath, because on the one hand there's the tesuji for it, but on the other there could be some aji of the C14 stones. That's what I tried to read out.

Honestly, I looked shortly at Q10 and L16 but maybe was a bit too afraid to play elsewhere.

- mic

OK, so would it be a reasonable description to say that you assessed the overall situation without spending any time on it and then spent your time on reading a specific tactical situation? That is one way of using your time. It will help your fighting strength, especially if you seek feedback from others on what went wrong.

At the same time, I would like to suggest that you spend some of your time also looking at the wider picture. That can also strengthen you strategic sense. In the current situation, for example, who is strong and who is weak on the left side? Black has invested in the marked stone and is extremely strong in the upper left. In the bottom left, White has left a standard joseki unfinished (did not play :w3:

at "a") and is weak there. White has three stones in the middle of the left side. After :w3:

they are well out into the center. They also have a connection to the top, but their connection to the top is thin. Black can cut them off with a play around "b". If Black does play "b", it not only cuts off the White left but threatens to attack the top as well. Black has three stones in the middle of the left side. They have a connection to the upper left at :b4:

. However, they also have plenty of room to escape into the center around "c". So the key strategic question is should Black be afraid here? What possible goals does Black have on the left side? (Hint: it is not time to turn away to places like L16 or Q10 :tmbup:

)

For bonus points: What is the standard reaction by Black when White leaves the joseki in the bottom left unfinished? :rambo:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X . . . O , . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . B X . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 4 O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 2 . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . a . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

mic · #9

First, I'd like to thank you for your extensive answer!

ez4u wrote:

OK, so would it be a reasonable description to say that you assessed the overall situation without spending any time on it and then spent your time on reading a specific tactical situation?

Well, more or less.

Quote:

At the same time, I would like to suggest that you spend some of your time also looking at the wider picture. That can also strengthen you strategic sense.

Is wider picture the same as whole-board thinking?

Quote:

What possible goals does Black have on the left side? (Hint: it is not time to turn away to places like L16 or Q10 :tmbup:

)

The goal was to prevent from having a moyo on the left side. What should have been black's goal, i.e. a better one than that ;-)

.

Quote:

For bonus points: What is the standard reaction by Black when White leaves the joseki in the bottom left unfinished? :rambo:

That's actually a really good question. I was pretty sure that there were some things possible, although I had no idea how. I'm pretty sure there must be examples how to deal with it, but dailyjoseki.com did not show me a :rambo:

way of dealing. Any ideas where I can get punishing moves (for future self-reviews)?

mic

Joaz Banbeck · **#10**

mic wrote:

Joaz Banbeck wrote:

25: Ouch. This is big.

Which move do you mean?

Oooops

. My numbers were off. I meant 26. And I meant 77 instead of 76.

Cheat sheet for bonus question:

Theory behind bonus question:

Basic 'direction of play' theory says that a 4-4 stone is not a corner stone, that it is oriented toward the middle of the board, or maybe the nearby sides. In the diagram below, the black 4-4 stone wants to have friends at 'a', or maybe 'b'. If all of these are blocked, 'c' is needed.
On a larger scale, the 4-4 stone wants friends around 'd'. It is not looking for friends around 'e'.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Development of a 4-4 stone $$ ----------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . e . . b . . . d . . . . . $$ | . . . X . a . . . d . . . . . $$ | . . . . c . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . b a . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . d d . . . . . , . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

If white approaches from one side, black usually takes the other:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W ( 'a' is often as good as 2 ) $$ ----------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . a 2 . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

If white gets to approach from both sides, black is unhappy. He must run out to 'b' or 'c'.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ ----------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . X . c . . . , . . . . . $$ | . . . . b . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

This black stone is totally ruined:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ ----------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

That is the theory. Now, to practice:
When joseki is this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ----------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . X . 4 . . . , . . . . . $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

...and he fails to play 4, you have an opportunity to lock him in the corner.

This would sort of work:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ----------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . X . 5 . . . , . . . . . $$ | . . 2 . 6 . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

...but 6 gives him some chances. Best is this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ----------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . X 5 . . . . , . . . . . $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Note that the outward direction of the 4-4 stone is totally blocked. The best that black can do in reply is this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ----------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . 6 8 . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . X 5 7 9 . . , . . . . . $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

...where white is getting massive influence and black is making two point moves.

Redundant · **#11**

@Joaz

crux · **#12**

Joaz Banbeck wrote:

25: You have no weak groups, you have kicked his butt in the top left :clap:

, and you have sente. You have the opportunity to take control of the game.

C13 is not urgent: it does not affect the life or death of your group.
It is not big: it is 12+/- points in gote, which is small at this stage of the game.

I rather like C13. Depending on who gets it, it's the difference between White having a small but essentially settled group, and White having a single stone looking silly approaching massive black thickness.

Would be interested what the high dans think.

ez4u · **#13**

mic wrote:

First, I'd like to thank you for your extensive answer!

ez4u wrote:

OK, so would it be a reasonable description to say that you assessed the overall situation without spending any time on it and then spent your time on reading a specific tactical situation?

Well, more or less.

Quote:

At the same time, I would like to suggest that you spend some of your time also looking at the wider picture. That can also strengthen you strategic sense.

Is wider picture the same as whole-board thinking?

Quote:

What possible goals does Black have on the left side? (Hint: it is not time to turn away to places like L16 or Q10 :tmbup:

)

The goal was to prevent from having a moyo on the left side. What should have been black's goal, i.e. a better one than that ;-)

.

Quote:

For bonus points: What is the standard reaction by Black when White leaves the joseki in the bottom left unfinished? :rambo:

That's actually a really good question. I was pretty sure that there were some things possible, although I had no idea how. I'm pretty sure there must be examples how to deal with it, but dailyjoseki.com did not show me a :rambo:

way of dealing. Any ideas where I can get punishing moves (for future self-reviews)?

mic

I like to think that "wider picture" is more flexible than "whole board thinking" but maybe that's just because sometimes I can't get my head around all 361 intersections no matter how hard I try! :blackeye:

Remember the saying, "The best is the enemy of the good". Maybe Voltaire said that or maybe someone else. Anyway, in my opinion Good is a great next step. Best will get here any day now. ;-)

Seriously, try to expand your understanding and vision, but one step at a time. Let's try to get stuck into this position a little more...

At this point, the only way there is going to be a White moyo on the left is if Black dies. Let's not do that! :cool:

But that does not mean it is a good idea to attach underneath and connect. Actually this reminds me of Blade90's play discussed here. You connected a group that is not yet in danger to a completely safe group. In doing so, You gained maybe ten points on the edge. So what alternatives did you have?

Choice number 1: Isolate the left center stones. Black could jump into the center around "a". This threatens to jump at "b" next and separate the White left from the top. This is a positive idea but limited in two ways: First, White will almost certainly reply around "c" and fix the defect that was left behind when White selected :w3:

; in response to Black "b", White probably plays "c" to secure the left stones and then just has to weather whatever Black comes with against the top. Meanwhile Black's left has poked its head out but has not developed otherwise. Second, Black loses the opportunity for...
Choice number 2: Split the bottom White stones in two. As a result of :w3:

, Black has a chance to split the bottom. Remember that White played K4 to erase the potential in front of Black's bottom right stone. If Black can cut off this stone, it may still come under attack.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X . . . O , . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . B X . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O . d . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 2 . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . c . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The basic follow-up to :b2:

is

below. Anyone who plays :b2:

in answer to :w1:

needs to understand that. In books you will often see that statement that White plays (or "should" play) :w1:

to make Black heavy. That is really only half the picture. Black does not answer at :b2:

to become heavy, Black answers at :b2:

to become strong. The new Black strength is the reason that White can not play away here. When White plays :w3:

in the game, the first question tactically is how can White get away with this? In other words, how does White get a good result after :b4:

? Think of this as essential Go knowledge. Now after :b4:

there is only one answer - fight! At the professional level White answers at "a" or "b" but among us amateurs who knows what will happen next. However, fundamentally, Black has a strong group on the left side with a handy outlet at "c" if necessary. Also there is a lot of room between :b4:

and the marked stone so Black should be willing to fight here. Black also has flexible goals: a. Separate the marked stone from the corner in order to attack the marked stone, b. trade :b4:

for the corner, or c. Depress the bottom White position (without managing to separate the stones) in sente before turning back to "b" in the previous diagram to separate the left center stones from the top.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X . . . O , . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . c O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O 4 . . . . W . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

For Extra Points 1: Quick! White plays :w1:

and you wonder whether to cut at :b2:

, does the ladder at "a" work for Black in the game?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ | . . X . O . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . $$ | . . O 2 1 a . . . . . $$ | . . . O X . . . . W . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ -----------------------[/go]

For Extra Points 2: Think! White plays :w1:

and Black answers at :b2:

. Does Black expect White to continue at :w3:

? If not, where does Black expect White to play :w3:

? (Not that I would want to imply that any of my colleagues are dreaming or anything! :mrgreen:

)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ | . . X . O . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O X 2 . . . W . $$ | . . . . 1 3 . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ -----------------------[/go]

Joaz Banbeck · **#14**

crux wrote:

Joaz Banbeck wrote:

25: You have no weak groups, you have kicked his butt in the top left :clap:

, and you have sente. You have the opportunity to take control of the game.

C13 is not urgent: it does not affect the life or death of your group.
It is not big: it is 12+/- points in gote, which is small at this stage of the game.

I rather like C13. Depending on who gets it, it's the difference between White having a small but essentially settled group, and White having a single stone looking silly approaching massive black thickness.

Would be interested what the high dans think.

Me too. I could be wrong on this one.

ez4u · **#15**

Joaz Banbeck wrote:

crux wrote:

Joaz Banbeck wrote:

25: You have no weak groups, you have kicked his butt in the top left :clap:

, and you have sente. You have the opportunity to take control of the game.

C13 is not urgent: it does not affect the life or death of your group.
It is not big: it is 12+/- points in gote, which is small at this stage of the game.

I rather like C13. Depending on who gets it, it's the difference between White having a small but essentially settled group, and White having a single stone looking silly approaching massive black thickness.

Would be interested what the high dans think.

Me too. I could be wrong on this one.

I am not sure that I meet the qualification in terms of dan height, but if loudness of opinions counts for anything... :batman:

Imagine that White plays C13. What should Black do? If Black does nothing, White will continue with D12, which threatens D19. So Black pretty much has to answer. Almost any answer will leave Black still troubled by damezumari. White naturally confines Black and builds strength on the outside. I think that Black can not allow this unless there is something really important elsewhere. At this point in the game, I can not see what that would be. I believe that Black should answer at C13.

I actually thought!

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