Where's the best play?

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Mon Oct 03, 2011 3:46 am

Here's the board position:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X X . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Where is the best place to play?

In the game, I played this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X X . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

But I do not know what is best. It feels slow to respond to white's approach:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X X . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

And the stones on top seem awkward for invading:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . W . . . . W . . . . W . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X X . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

What do you all think?

perceval · Post by **perceval** » Mon Oct 03, 2011 4:06 am

my 6k thoughts:
The most urgent seems to be to support C15 as otherwise W would probably be able to build the top or right while pressuring it.
So i would consider a, b or c

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . , a . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . d . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X X . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

a seems more suited to reduce the top, otherwise b is slower than c but maybe i ll pick it anyway to try to be more solid when i reduce the top later.
So my personal choice would be a, and if i get sente probably finish the double wing formation at d, getign the last bi point
my second choice is b, then c.
d seems less urgent.
if there is another point to consider i do not see it so i ll be interested if someone can point it out.

Feel free to correct my poor judgment

flOvermind · Post by **flOvermind** » Mon Oct 03, 2011 6:06 am

Just a few general thoughts on the position:

- All white stones are on the third line or lower.
- The left side looks uninteresting, with the low, solid position in the bottom left.
- The top side looks really flat, and therefore hard to develop.

- The top left corner is unfinished, but I don't think it's urgent.

Generally, I think that's a rather complicated position for both players...

With both the top and left side being relatively uninteresting, it's really hard to find a good continuation for the top left corner. If you're feeling adventurous, you could start the taisha, with the aim of grabbing corner territory. Locally, the corner itself seems most interesting, but I have no idea where that will actually lead (in my case, probably to a catastrophic reading error and resignation).

I also considered perceval's 'a', but I'm not sure I really want to give white solid territory in exchange for a wall that is facing such a solid corner. It certainly isn't a bad move, but I wouldn't play it.

So I'd play along the proverb: "When in doubt, tenuki

".

Some interesting spots on the board:
The right side hoshi: Builds a double-wing formation, so it can't really be bad. Seems like the biggest point on the board, according to "standard" fuseki theory.
Tengen: Ultra-influence style, capitalizing on the low position of white.

Of course, I'm not that strong, but I'm strong enough to know that I actually have no clue where the best move is in this position

. So I'd love to see some comments from stronger players.

Post by **Solomon** » Mon Oct 03, 2011 6:33 am

White is strong at the bottom, and C6 makes the left side hard to develop. White also has support for his top left stone. So I'd try to play a move that settles quick and doesn't engage in a fight which would be disadvantageous to you. Hence:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . B O . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X X . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

perceval · Post by **perceval** » Mon Oct 03, 2011 6:34 am

flOvermind wrote:Corner is unfinished, but I don't think it's urgent.

that is where i differ i think : i fear a severe pincer like so:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm19 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . 4 . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X X . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

..and i am not sure were it might go after that but i believed that W would be able to build something on top or right "naturally" while B leave locally or escape.
but i maybe wrong just because i cant really see behind this position.
maybe if i knew the joseki i would know exactly what shape W territory might take and be less afraid.
looking at eidogo:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm20 followed by @a , @b $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 , . 3 . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . 6 X . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . 1 9 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 7 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . b . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X X . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

i don't know how to judge that ... maybe W territory isn't so imposing now, but i am proably not showing the best sequence anyway.

Website · Post by **Chew Terr** » Mon Oct 03, 2011 7:16 am

Though the top-left was my first instinct, I think I would probably play the top-right 3-3, because it threatens a fairly severe attack with M17. Perhaps Araban is right though, and one should play for sente in the top left before making your move to the right.

flOvermind · Post by **flOvermind** » Mon Oct 03, 2011 7:51 am

flOvermind wrote:If you're feeling adventurous, you could start the taisha, with the aim of grabbing corner territory. Locally, the corner itself seems most interesting [...]

Araban wrote:
$$Wcm1
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . B O . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X X . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . B O . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X X . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

LOL... I always miss the most obvious move

Fredrik · Post by **Fredrik** » Mon Oct 03, 2011 8:00 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . 2 . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X X . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

As people has previously stated, White has kind of a flat position. Looking at the board, I can not comphrend the order of moves. Did White answer 1 at 2? Nontheless, Black already has the "superior" position.

Chew Terr wrote:Though the top-left was my first instinct, I think I would probably play the top-right 3-3, because it threatens a fairly severe attack with M17. Perhaps Araban is right though, and one should play for sente in the top left before making your move to the right.

Generally, the 3-3 would be a bad move here.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . 2 a . . . O . . 3 . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . 4 . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X X . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

When White has a stone at 2 or A, Black should _not_ play R17, as doing so would only help white defend his position at top with very good shape.

If White gets to play R17 first, it's not a big deal for Black and he can aim to invade the top at a later stage if feasible, or play 6 depending on the surrondings. Black is not unhappy being "forced" to play 5.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . 2 . . a . O . . 4 . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X X . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X X . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . b . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

The position itself is very interesting, and I believe there are several possibillites for Black.

As Black, I would play at 1 to develop the most interesting part of the board, lowerright which corresponds greatly with Blacks joseki-choice in lowerleft. In the future I would aim to play at A. Next I would expect white to play 3-3 in the lowerright or approach at B.

The reasoning for not answering in upperleft is as following:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . b O . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . a , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X X . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

1. I do not understand how white got the stone on the top, and because white are low on both sides, I do not fear an attack as Whites moyo-potential from attacking is extremly limited.

In addition, if White does not start from "attacking" at "a", Black will always have the opportunity to sabaki at "b". However, it would not be wise to play "a" at the current juncture.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O 5 . . . O . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X X . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

It would not be difficult for Black to handle..

As closing words I would like to say that because the game is still so early, I don't really think there is an optimal way of playing. Kirbys original move might not be the best direction, but it still settles one stone and is joseki. From a local point of view the move is excellent, and I find it hard to critize it. It will definetly not decide the game :-)

Magicwand · Post by **Magicwand** » Mon Oct 03, 2011 10:57 am

kirby:
your move seems like the best move.

edit: i think it is a only move you can make.

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Mon Oct 03, 2011 5:14 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Approaches strength $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . W , X X . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . W W X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I do not like the play in the game because it approaches White's strength ( :wc:

).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Builds a framework $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . W . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . , 2 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X X . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

My first thought is :b1:

, to build a large framework. But that allows :w2:

, which rectifies White's low stance on the top.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Battle $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . W . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 1 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X X . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

If

, White can start a fight, and the :wc:

stone exerts some influence.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Settles the corner $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . 1 O . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X X . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

to settle the corner comes to mind, as well.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Low $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . W . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . , 3 . . 1 2 , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X X . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Another thought is :b1:

to take advantage of White's low stance on the top side. White will probably reply with :w2:

, and then :b1:

is there to support :b3:

.

This play is not original. For instance:

Post by **Solomon** » Mon Oct 03, 2011 5:34 pm

Bill Spight wrote:
$$Bcm1 Builds a framework
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . W . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , 2 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X X . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Builds a framework $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . W . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . , 2 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X X . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

My first thought is , to build a large framework. But that allows , which rectifies White's low stance on the top.

I think this looks great for Black, tbh.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . W . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . , 2 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . 5 . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X X . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Dusk Eagle · Post by **Dusk Eagle** » Mon Oct 03, 2011 9:58 pm

I'm a bit late to the party, but I also would just want to play at the right-hand star point. Black's area is large, while white's is flat.The :bc:

group doesn't appear to be in much trouble.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X X . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

If white pincers like perceval fears, jumping out may be fine, but my idea is to just attach on top:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . 6 . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X X . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I like this result, but I can't guarantee you it's correct.

Edit: Actually, I'm not so sold on this result as I think about it more, as I can't find a good spot to place :b6:

.

gogameguru · Post by **gogameguru** » Sun Oct 09, 2011 10:14 pm

How about this?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . b . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 a . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X X . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I prefer it to moves like 'b', because it's obvious that invading the 3-3 point in the lower right will be reasonably good for white after black makes double extensions (i.e with 'b'). This makes it harder for white to find a good move next.

Black 'a' is an alternative (depending on your style) and black can aim to play around 'c' later either way.

I don't think the left side is that interesting and white doesn't have that much potential there. If white tries to attack on the left side with 1, black could do something like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 7 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . 6 4 O 3 . . . O . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . X X . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

White 7 is usually small, but is natural in this position. It helps white's pincer stone indirectly by keeping black unsettled. Nevertheless black seems to have a good game.

It looks like taking the 3-3 point would be more severe for white, but...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . 3 O 5 a . . O . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . 4 . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . 1 . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . X X . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Now white is flat everywhere and black can play 'a', 'b' (or even 'c') next. Black looks great on a whole board scale, so the other diagram was better for white.

Black plays the diagonal move at 2 partly because of white's stone at J17. Starting a tactical fight at the top would make J17 useful, so black can play simply to make it overconcentrated instead.

Tami · Post by **Tami** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 12:11 am

I liked both Frederik and the Guru's suggestions a lot, but may I throw in a completely different idea?

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This move seems to press down from the widest area possible, and offers support to the marked black stone. The drawback to it would be that it's not sente, but is its size enough?

flOvermind · Post by **flOvermind** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 3:19 pm

I did consider a move in this area, but I have a few problems with that:

- It may look like a typical "move between two frameworks", but white doesn't really have a framework here, just a solid corner. So this is a single purpose move, just increasing the black framework, doing not much else.

- I actually think white can completely ignore it, and probably ignore a followup, too, and still be fine in the corner. So the move isn't really "pressing down" anything. Besides, white is already low on that side, so why should you press down more?

- On the concrete move: I think it's a bit loose. As white, I'd think about cutting, working towards a splitting attack between this and the top left black stone. Or perhaps first pincer in the top left, and then cut. The corner itself seems solid enough to support this agression. This actually gives white the opportunity to build something substential on the left, and that feels wrong after white already got a solid corner.

In summary, it all boils down to "stay away from strength"

.

But of course, since I'm probably a bit weaker than you are, you should take these comments with a large grain of salt

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