22. Araban (5d) vs. zinger (1d)

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Solomon
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Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Post by Solomon »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . W X X O O . . . . . X X O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . , X . . . . , . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . O X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Post by zinger »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O O 2 . . . . X X O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 X 1 . . . , . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . O X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Pretty crappy but at least I don't have to resign immediately. I am thinking of the points a as miai:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X a . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O O 2 . . . . X X O O O . . . |
$$ | . a . 3 X 1 . . . , . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . O X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Main Entry: zing·er Pronunciation: \ˈziŋ-ər\
1 : something causing or meant to cause interest, surprise, or shock
2 : a pointed witty remark or retort
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

I don't think that the two points marked 'a' are truly miai. Yes, they are both points that both sides would like to get, but they are not really equal or interchangable as the term miai suggests.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Diagram 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X a . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O O 2 . . . . X X O O O . . . |
$$ | . a . 3 X 1 . . . , . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . O X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


White can take the leftmost one, and then can force the following sequence:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Diagram 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X 1 3 5 . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O O O 2 4 . . X X O O O . . . |
$$ | . W . X X X . . . , . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . 6 . . . O X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Black then has two choices:

He can run with the upper group, and the central one dies as below:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Diagram 3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X X X X 1 . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O O O O O . . X X O O O . . . |
$$ | . O . X X X 3 . . , . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . O 2 . 4 O . . . O X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Or he can run with the central one, and the upper one is in trouble:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Diagram 4
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X X X X 4 9 . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O O O O O 5 6 X X O O O . . . |
$$ | . O . X X X . . 0 7 2 3 O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . O 1 . . O 8 . . O X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


And it probably dies in a variation similar to this:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Diagram 5
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X X X X O X 2 4 X 6 . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O O O O O 3 O X X O O O . . . |
$$ | . O . X X X . . O . O X O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . . O O . 5 O X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


...although it is complex and I haven't read all the variations.

The other possibility is to let white save his two stones:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Diagram 6 - variation of diagram 4
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X X X X . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O O O O O 3 5 X X O O O . . . |
$$ | . O . X X X . . . 4 2 . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . O 1 . . O . 8 . O X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . 6 7 . . . . . X X X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


And now one white group is running between two eyeless black groups.

All of these possibilities look better for white, IMHO.
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207
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Kirby
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Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Post by Kirby »

As black, I'd be inclined to play this way:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . W X X O O 1 . . . . X X O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . , X 2 3 . . , . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . O X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Yes, white got a lot in the corner, but this seems more playable for black from my perspective.
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Solomon
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Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Post by Solomon »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O O O . . . . X X O O O . . . |
$$ | . W . X X X . . . , . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . O X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

When I was in middle school, I had the strangest obsession with the game show "Who Wants to be a Millionaire?". I felt like I was in the hot seat trying to decide between G18 or B16. At the $16,000 point and with all lifelines used up, G18 is the move where I'd walk away with the $16,000 somewhat satisfied and B16 is the move where I'd go for the $32,000 despite some uncertainty and be safe at the milestone (I think they changed the money ladder recently though, I haven't kept track in the last few years).

However, I trust in my reading and from what I've read, Black will either lose the top stones or the clumped stones in the middle in an elaborate net and I'm fairly confident that I've read it correctly, no worries about ko either. If the net fails to work though, then I walk with $1,000 :(.

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Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Post by zinger »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X 1 . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O O O . . . . X X O O O . . . |
$$ | . O . X X X . . . , . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . O X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Probably I will lose the D16 stones soon and resign.
Main Entry: zing·er Pronunciation: \ˈziŋ-ər\
1 : something causing or meant to cause interest, surprise, or shock
2 : a pointed witty remark or retort
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Solomon
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Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Post by Solomon »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X X 2 4 6 . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O O O 1 3 5 . X X O O O . . . |
$$ | . O . X X X . . . , . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . O X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 7 . . . . X X X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The sequence I was talking about in the last video; 1 - 6 is inevitable if he wants to save the top stones, 7 is the geta I'm (pretty) sure works clean. Variations to come in the next video depending on his response.
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Solomon
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Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Post by Solomon »

Hmm...maybe I should have left out 7 and played up to 5 instead, seems like it gives away too much information. What if my opponent didn't read out 7 for instance and assumed the group would live up to 6?

But I also feel that it's just more truthful this way. And since the point of a Malkovich game is to learn and teach rather than to win (that's not to say I've been pulling back punches), I felt it was more appropriate this way. And of course, there's also the possibility that 7 is just a donk net and I misread.

So, in a nutshell, I'm very divided on this issue.
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Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Post by topazg »

To Araban:

Araban wrote:Hmm...maybe I should have left out 7 and played up to 5 instead, seems like it gives away too much information. What if my opponent didn't read out 7 for instance and assumed the group would live up to 6?

But I also feel that it's just more truthful this way. And since the point of a Malkovich game is to learn and teach rather than to win (that's not to say I've been pulling back punches), I felt it was more appropriate this way. And of course, there's also the possibility that 7 is just a donk net and I misread.

So, in a nutshell, I'm very divided on this issue.


I know the feeling well, and it's why I never tend to trigger my tenuki (a point I made in my current Malkovich game about numsgil's trigger). However, I also agree that that's part of the point of Malkovich games to learn. It's the reason why I want my next Malkovich game to be a completely open Malkovich game against whoever wants to play.
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Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Post by zinger »

I assume Solomon has read this out and my stones are dead. Which would force me to resign. But there's no harm in doing a little reading of my own first, even if it's only an exercise. So I will think about it for a little while.

Stay tuned ..
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Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Post by zinger »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X X X X X . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O O O O O O . X X O O O . . . |
$$ | . O . X X X . . . , . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . 1 . . . . . O X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . X X X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


hahah, nothing to lose at this point.
Main Entry: zing·er Pronunciation: \ˈziŋ-ər\
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Solomon
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Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Post by Solomon »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X X X X X . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O O O O O O . X X O O O . . . |
$$ | . O . X X X . . . , . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . O W X . . . . . O X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . X X X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I promise I'll add a video here later, but I'm in a library cramming for an exam in 60 minutes. I read out this move though (hopefully).
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Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Post by zinger »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X X X X X . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O O O O O O . X X O O O . . . |
$$ | . O . X X X 1 . . , . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . O O X . . . . . O X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . X X X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


ho hum last chance
Main Entry: zing·er Pronunciation: \ˈziŋ-ər\
1 : something causing or meant to cause interest, surprise, or shock
2 : a pointed witty remark or retort
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Solomon
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Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Post by Solomon »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X X X X X . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O O O O O O . X X O O O . . . |
$$ | . O . X X X X . . , . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . O O X W . . . . O X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . X X X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Just wrapping it up now, I'll just make one big video at the end if Black resigns here since now I'm certain the group is dead unless I made a gigantic misread (I've had my moments of hallucination). If Black doesn't resign, then the game is very comfortable for me.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X X X X X . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O O O O O O . X X O O O . . . |
$$ | . O . X X X X . . , . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . O b O O X O . . . . O X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . c . a O a . . . X X X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If Black plays at either 'a', then I connect at 'b'. If Black plays 'b', then I block at 'c'.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X X X X X . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O O O O O O . X X O O O . . . |
$$ | . O . X X X X 7 9 0 . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . O 1 O O X O 8 . . . O X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 4 3 O 5 . . . X X X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Post by zinger »

I resign. My plot to escape by first cutting at 2-2 doesn't work due snapback.

Well done Solomon :)
Main Entry: zing·er Pronunciation: \ˈziŋ-ər\
1 : something causing or meant to cause interest, surprise, or shock
2 : a pointed witty remark or retort
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