[go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . 6 . 7 . 8 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | 3 O 4 O X X O O 2 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X 5 X X O X X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X O O . . O , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
[sl=EternalLife]Eternal Life[/sl]?
I tried to search on google with "eternal live" +"japanese rules". But I only found how the Japanese make eternal love . Though interesting I really wondered what the rules in different versions say about this position if they don't have the super ko rule. Well, after correcting the spelling of my search, I found some answers in http://senseis.xmp.net/?EternalLife.
edit: herman is right, just click on his link.
Last edited by cyclops on Sun Oct 30, 2011 9:45 am, edited 2 times in total.
Always trying to refute the expert solution I thought I found the refutation.
$$c $$ +----------------------- $$ | . . . . 6 . 1 5 . . . $$ | . O 2 O X X . . 3 4 . $$ | 8 X 7 X X O X X O . . $$ | . O X X O O . . O , . $$ | . O O O . . . a . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
[go]$$c $$ +----------------------- $$ | . . . . 6 . 1 5 . . . $$ | . O 2 O X X . . 3 4 . $$ | 8 X 7 X X O X X O . . $$ | . O X X O O . . O , . $$ | . O O O . . . a . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
But, of course, it fails. W's containment is too weak. B easily walks out at a. The problem depends on W being weak around there. Correct?
cyclops wrote:Always trying to refute the expert solution I thought I found the refutation.
$$c $$ +----------------------- $$ | . . . . 6 . 1 5 . . . $$ | . O 2 O X X . . 3 4 . $$ | 8 X 7 X X O X X O . . $$ | . O X X O O . . O , . $$ | . O O O . . . a . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
[go]$$c $$ +----------------------- $$ | . . . . 6 . 1 5 . . . $$ | . O 2 O X X . . 3 4 . $$ | 8 X 7 X X O X X O . . $$ | . O X X O O . . O , . $$ | . O O O . . . a . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
But, of course, it fails. W's containment is too weak. B easily walks out at a. The problem depends on W being weak around there. Correct?
Yes, I quite like the problem for the fact that it contains such subtle secondary concerns. This one, as well as the double ko death in the corner in entropi's attempt.
Nice sequence cyclops, I would not even consider white giving up those two stones. But if escaping at h15 (or g15) does not lead anywhere (maybe because white is already too strong outside), then black can still play at a18, leading to a 2 step (or 3 step??) ko for life. This time no double-ko, I guess. Or am I again missing something?
If you say no, Elwood and I will come here for breakfast, lunch, and dinner every day of the week.
entropi wrote:Nice sequence cyclops, I would not even consider white giving up those two stones. But if escaping at h15 (or g15) does not lead anywhere (maybe because white is already too strong outside), then black can still play at a18, leading to a 2 step (or 3 step??) ko for life. This time no double-ko, I guess. Or am I again missing something?
$$c $$ +----------------------- $$ | . . . . 6 . 1 5 . . . $$ | 7 O 2 O X X . . 3 4 . $$ | . X 8 X X O X X O . . $$ | . O X X O O . . O , O $$ | . O O O . . . . O . . $$ | . . . . . O . . . . .
[go]$$c $$ +----------------------- $$ | . . . . 6 . 1 5 . . . $$ | 7 O 2 O X X . . 3 4 . $$ | . X 8 X X O X X O . . $$ | . O X X O O . . O , O $$ | . O O O . . . . O . . $$ | . . . . . O . . . . .[/go]
Thx for the compliment. I wouldn't mind to get some more. But I have no idea where your ko's would arise, b17 seems dead as a stone to me.
entropi wrote:Nice sequence cyclops, I would not even consider white giving up those two stones. But if escaping at h15 (or g15) does not lead anywhere (maybe because white is already too strong outside), then black can still play at a18, leading to a 2 step (or 3 step??) ko for life. This time no double-ko, I guess. Or am I again missing something?
$$c $$ +----------------------- $$ | . . . . 6 . 1 5 . . . $$ | 7 O 2 O X X . . 3 4 . $$ | . X 8 X X O X X O . . $$ | . O X X O O . . O , O $$ | . O O O . . . . O . . $$ | . . . . . O . . . . .
[go]$$c $$ +----------------------- $$ | . . . . 6 . 1 5 . . . $$ | 7 O 2 O X X . . 3 4 . $$ | . X 8 X X O X X O . . $$ | . O X X O O . . O , O $$ | . O O O . . . . O . . $$ | . . . . . O . . . . .[/go]
Thx for the compliment. I wouldn't mind to get some more. But I have no idea where your ko's would arise, b17 seems dead as a stone to me.
Nowhere, it is dead indeed. I hallucinated a16 would produce a ko, which of course does not. Avoiding such no-brain type obvious mistakes could make me somewhat stronger perhaps...
If you say no, Elwood and I will come here for breakfast, lunch, and dinner every day of the week.
cyclops wrote:Always trying to refute the expert solution I thought I found the refutation.
$$c $$ +----------------------- $$ | . . . . 6 . 1 5 . . . $$ | . O 2 O X X . . 3 4 . $$ | 8 X 7 X X O X X O . . $$ | . O X X O O . . O , . $$ | . O O O . . . a . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
[go]$$c $$ +----------------------- $$ | . . . . 6 . 1 5 . . . $$ | . O 2 O X X . . 3 4 . $$ | 8 X 7 X X O X X O . . $$ | . O X X O O . . O , . $$ | . O O O . . . a . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
But, of course, it fails. W's containment is too weak. B easily walks out at a. The problem depends on W being weak around there. Correct?
This is an ancient problem. In ancient problems escape was a factor. Modern compositions tend to be self contained. Different conventions, I suppose, the ancient convention being that the unshown part of the board is empty, the modern convention being that the unshown part of the board is unknown.
The Adkins Principle: At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
$$W White to kill $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . W . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . O O O O O O . , . $$ | O O X X . X X O . . . $$ | X X . X . . X O . W . $$ | X X . . . . . X . . . $$ ----------------------
[go]$$W White to kill $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . W . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . O O O O O O . , . $$ | O O X X . X X O . . . $$ | X X . X . . X O . W . $$ | X X . . . . . X . . . $$ ----------------------[/go]
Ah, I see - so that's why modern problems have stones like the marked ones, so you know to focus on the corner?
$$W White to kill $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . W . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . O O O O O O . , . $$ | O O X X . X X O . . . $$ | X X . X . . X O . W . $$ | X X . . . . . X . . . $$ ----------------------
[go]$$W White to kill $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . W . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . O O O O O O . , . $$ | O O X X . X X O . . . $$ | X X . X . . X O . W . $$ | X X . . . . . X . . . $$ ----------------------[/go]
Ah, I see - so that's why modern problems have stones like the marked ones, so you know to focus on the corner?
heh, I like this problem. I should do more Tsumego.
One variation:
$$W White to kill $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . W . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . O O O O O O . , . $$ | O O X X 5 X X O . . . $$ | X X . X 3 . X O . W . $$ | X X 4 1 2 . . X . . . $$ ----------------------
[go]$$W White to kill $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . W . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . O O O O O O . , . $$ | O O X X 5 X X O . . . $$ | X X . X 3 . X O . W . $$ | X X 4 1 2 . . X . . . $$ ----------------------[/go]
Another:
$$W White to kill $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . W . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . O O O O O O . , . $$ | O O X X 4 X X O . . . $$ | X X . X 3 . X O . W . $$ | X X . 1 2 5 . X . . . $$ ----------------------
[go]$$W White to kill $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . W . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . O O O O O O . , . $$ | O O X X 4 X X O . . . $$ | X X . X 3 . X O . W . $$ | X X . 1 2 5 . X . . . $$ ----------------------[/go]
I leave continuations and alternate variations to the viewer.
And, of course, the following does not work:
$$W White to kill $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . W . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . O O O O O O . , . $$ | O O X X 2 X X O . . . $$ | X X 5 X 1 4 X O . W . $$ | X X 7 3 6 . . X . . . $$ ----------------------
[go]$$W White to kill $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . W . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . O O O O O O . , . $$ | O O X X 2 X X O . . . $$ | X X 5 X 1 4 X O . W . $$ | X X 7 3 6 . . X . . . $$ ----------------------[/go]
Which gives Black life via under-the-stones tesuji:
$$W White to kill $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . W . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . O O O O O O . , . $$ | O O X X 2 X X O . . . $$ | . 8 5 X . 4 X O . W . $$ | . . 7 3 6 . . X . . . $$ ----------------------
[go]$$W White to kill $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . W . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . O O O O O O . , . $$ | O O X X 2 X X O . . . $$ | . 8 5 X . 4 X O . W . $$ | . . 7 3 6 . . X . . . $$ ----------------------[/go]
Again, I leave continuations and alternate variations to the viewer.
first. 
. Though interesting I really wondered what the rules in different versions say about this position if they don't have the super ko rule.
at a18, leading to a 2 step (or 3 step??) ko for life. This time no double-ko, I guess. Or am I again missing something?
