Beginner needing some direction:

xed_over · Post by **xed_over** » Fri Nov 04, 2011 8:30 am

Dr Burns wrote:Does anyone have any advice on contact players. I played a guy that after the first 8/10 moves felt the need to touch every single stone I played. The game was annoying and deeply unpleasant.

hahaha, yeah, go players each seem to have their own quirks.

I've played with people like that before too. And I've seen professional players do the same. And players who keep "straightening" the same group of stones they've already straightened while they're considering their next move (and usually in that area).

I also play regularly with a dan level player who rarely ever plays his stones on the intersections, and often they're as far off as being in the middle of two points, or almost in the squares and not being able to tell where he intended to play. The most annoying part of that is that he just leaves them there and it doesn't seem to bother him at all. I have to straighten almost all his stones just to be able to see what the shape on the board is. I've learned to adjust a little so that I only straighten his worst ones.

I've also played a guy who is almost blind. He plays leaned over the board with his face a mere 4-6 inches from the board. I felt guilty being annoyed

, but that game was tough because I couldn't always see the whole board myself.

blade90 · Post by **blade90** » Fri Nov 04, 2011 8:31 am

To contact plays there are many possibilities, depending on the position.
But the 2 standard responses that every beginner should know are shown below. Always playing contact moves is bad, a contact move induces a response and that makes it stronger - in other words if you touch an enemy stone you force it to get stronger.

Here the most common responses:
First the simple extend, white touches black and black extends, very simple: This is called "nobi"

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ . . . . . . . . . $$ . . . . . . . . . $$ . . . . 2 . . . . $$ . . . . X 1 . . . $$ . . . . . . . . . $$ . . . . . . . . .[/go]

The 2nd is the bend, that could get complicated if white crosscuts but at your level don't think about that: This move is called "hane"

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ . . . . . . . . . $$ . . . . . . . . . $$ . . . . . 2 . . . $$ . . . . X 1 . . . $$ . . . . . . . . . $$ . . . . . . . . .[/go]

I recommend to simply experiment with both of them, using always the same in every situation is wrong, but for now use them. If you are not sure what is better, try to read it out or flip a coin - you should watch how your opponents respond and how the game continues.

Beginners that are contact players are always trying to provoke a fight, not knowing that contact moves are used for defence and not attack - there are some exceptions, but you will see that in your own games.

xed_over · Post by **xed_over** » Fri Nov 04, 2011 8:33 am

ah, I misread "contact" and "touch". sorry.

Dr Burns · Post by **Dr Burns** » Fri Nov 04, 2011 9:30 am

Xed-Over,

I enjoyed your post despite your misread. I wish he did "touch" every stone played. Since we were on KGS after a little while all he would see were his finger prints on the monitor lol!

Blade90,

Thanks, I'll have to just work on my responses. I just find the play style annoying. I didn't feel like I was able to play Go that much, just a thousand rounds of capture. It made me die a little inside.

Thanks and God bless,
Adam

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Fri Nov 04, 2011 10:21 am

Dr Burns wrote:One more question! I was reading last night and the author was talking aboug "Double Sente" it sounds good to me, but I don't know where to go to get some, lol. Can anyone explain it a bit. (I do understand sente/gote/reverse sente, at least academically)

Hi, Doc! Welcome to go.

First, a warning. Go has a long history, and so many go terms are like words in a regular language: ambiguous. You may get conflicting explanations, both of which are correct, depending on context. Sente and gote are such terms. Both have been around for ages, and each has more than one meaning. If there is a point or region of play where, no matter which player plays there, the other player must reply, each player's forcing play is called a double sente. What confuses people is that whether a play is double sente depends upon the rest of the board. Each player's reply has to be bigger or better than any other play on the board. There is no such thing as a double sente in a vacuum. You cannot just look at a local region and say that a play there is double sente. Nonetheless, even some textbooks, particularly older ones, will do that. One recent book, Absolute Counting in the Endgame (in Japanese), by O Meien, 9 dan, does not even mention double sente.

Dr Burns · Post by **Dr Burns** » Fri Nov 04, 2011 11:43 am

Bill,

Thanks for the disambiguation!

Now, on to the next question: more reading!

As mentioned earlier I have: Go! More Than a Game" and "So You Want to Play Go? Level 1." But I am wanting a few more books. I don't have an on-hand instructor (but do appreciate so much of the online help I'm getting here and on KGS from kind players who take of their time. Here's what I'm looking at:

Learn to play go: 1-3
In the Beginning (Elementary go Vol 1)

Here are two things that are REALLY killing me right now, and am hoping these will help me with.

1) My opening, setting up a good moyo, breaking up an opponents moyo. Generally I am doing HORRIBLY after the about stone 8 or 10 (or earlier.) I know corners-sides-center. But after that, nothing.

2) Joseki, I don't always play Go, but when I do, I wish I played Joseki's. When my corners get attacked (and lets face it, in what game don't they get attacked) I don't have a clue how to really respond. I understand the "don't just memorize Joseki" concept. But I don't have ANY concept right now. So I'm getting bloodied quite badly.

So are these books good? Are they redundant? Will they they help me get the theory I need to grow on? Are there other books I should get instead? Will Lassie get help before little Timmy drowns in the well?

Thanks again for sharing your time and giant heap of Go knowledge!

God bless,
Adam

emeraldemon · Post by **emeraldemon** » Fri Nov 04, 2011 11:51 am

Dr Burns wrote:Here are two things that are REALLY killing me right now, and am hoping these will help me with.

1) My opening,

2) Joseki

Neither of these two things are killing you right now. I can tell you with 90% confidence without even looking at your games: your reading is your weakest link. If you want confirmation, post a game in the review section of the forum, so the stronger players can help you decide what to work on, but if I had to recommend a book I'd recommend "graded go problems for beginners" volume 1 or 2.

Dr Burns · Post by **Dr Burns** » Fri Nov 04, 2011 2:22 pm

emeraldemon wrote:...if I had to recommend a book I'd recommend "graded go problems for beginners" volume 1 or 2.

Any recommendation on where to buy those. Amazon has the more advanced books at purchasable prices. Vol 1-3 or so are crazy expensive for some reason!

Thanks and God bless,
Adam

oren · Post by **oren** » Fri Nov 04, 2011 2:43 pm

Dr Burns wrote:Any recommendation on where to buy those. Amazon has the more advanced books at purchasable prices. Vol 1-3 or so are crazy expensive for some reason!

http://kiseido.com/go_books.htm

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Fri Nov 04, 2011 5:37 pm

Dr Burns wrote:1) My opening

Adam, like many kyu players and other beginners (including myself, for a long time),
you think your opening is a big problem. It's not.

What's really killing you now is your complete lack of fundamentals ("basics"):
basic shapes, basic tesuji, basic life-and-death, etc. -- which is also normal, for all beginners.

(Unfortunately, experience has shown there's no way to convince you of either;
you just have to find out over time, by yourself or with the help of others, from, well, experience.

)

As emeraldemon suggested, post a game and get some feedback.

Try "The Second Book of Go" by Richard Bozulich-- http://www.kiseido.com/Begin2.htm#K31

Website · Post by **Chew Terr** » Fri Nov 04, 2011 5:59 pm

Oh, and you're not allowed to play a stone on the second line before turn 50 unless it's a matter of life and death, and no stones on the first (again, unless similarly dire) until almost endgame. You and your opponent both liked first-line stones too much in that game I saw.

edit: I'm exaggerating, of course. This is just one of those guidelines that's meant as a generality.

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Fri Nov 04, 2011 6:25 pm

For Adam and Chew Terr:

Chew Terr wrote:you're not allowed to play... on the second line before turn 50 unless it's a matter of life and death

Here's a pro opening...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 9 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . 7 8 . 5 . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

...cont'd...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bm11 $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O 4 X . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...where three of the first 15 moves ( :b11:

,

,

) are on the second line.

As Chew Terr said, it has to do with life-and-death. Kind of.
And Adam, yes, it's a joseki.
What life-and-death, kind of, you may ask?
Yes. ==> Basics.

Dr Burns · Post by **Dr Burns** » Fri Nov 04, 2011 6:30 pm

Chew,

Thanks for the info. Are you trying to tell me I can't use my 1-1 / 1-19 opener. I thought that was a good one. No way they're cutting into my corner! :shock:

Anyhow, in a more serious vein, I guess I'll have to try and remember that. Judging by the low Kyu games I play in (mostly due to my skill level) I think I'll have to continue playing there for a bit, but we'll see! Thanks!

God bless,
Adam

hyperpape · Post by **hyperpape** » Fri Nov 04, 2011 6:36 pm

I'm not sure if I like your principle, Chew, but can I still offer a friendly amendment?

You are not allowed to play on the first line for the purpose of making or taking territory during the first 50 moves. That is almost true.

tezza · Post by **tezza** » Fri Nov 04, 2011 8:37 pm

Hi Adam,

Wow! In 3 4 days, you improved 9 11 stones to ~~21k~~ 19k! Congrats! :clap:

Cheers
tezza

Life In 19x19

Beginner needing some direction:

Re: Beginner needing some direction:

Re: Beginner needing some direction:

Re: Beginner needing some direction:

Re: Beginner needing some direction:

Re: Beginner needing some direction:

Re: Beginner needing some direction:

Re: Beginner needing some direction:

Re: Beginner needing some direction:

Re: Beginner needing some direction:

Re: Beginner needing some direction:

Re: Beginner needing some direction:

Re: Beginner needing some direction:

Re: Beginner needing some direction: