Three vs. Four Handi Stones

karaklis · Post by **karaklis** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 1:36 am

I am wondering whether it is only me who is concerned or whether this is a general issue. Ok, my opponent was GnuGo, but this issue possibly applies to human opponents as well. Over the last weeks I have played more than a dozen games, against three handi stones and against four handi stones. You would assume that one stone difference is not much, but while I keep winning against three stones, I keep losing against four stones. It appears that the difference between three and four handi stones is huge, much more than e.g. between two and three stones. At the moment I suppose that I have some severe gap that shows up when playing against four stones, so my questions are:

- Who has made similar experiences?
- What were your weaknesses that caused the loss against four stones?
- How have you overcome this weakness?

SoDesuNe · Post by **SoDesuNe** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 2:33 am

Well, of course: Against 3 stones you can place one corner stone yourself, so you have more influence on the choice of Joseki and flow of the game.
Against 4 stones you - in my experience - have to be more patient to get the advantage or wait for a mistake/timid play. In my opinion the worst thing you can do is to try to force things to happen. Don't get overly engaged in the beginning of a four stone handicap game. If Black were as strong as you, you woudn't have a chance anyway. So sit back, relax and don't let you chances slip ; )

My appraoch against four stones it to leave positions unfinished as long as I can and to not play commenly known Josekis.

E.g.:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Leave the positions unfinished $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Don't play Joseki $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

At one point it will invite a fight and then I have to be confident that I will end up better =D

Loons · Post by **Loons** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 3:04 am

I don't personally find 4-6H much more stressful than 2-3 any more. I broke my initial fear by just copying Magicwand's openings in a couple of 4-5H games and finding they often turned out pretty well.

I do think fuseki strategy has a visible shift:
=<3H
Play completely normally.

=>4H

1. Make lots of approaches
2. Aim for pincer-counterpincer battles
3. Play high double-approaches

Maybe hazard a look at some of the 4-5 handicap Malkoviches?

tapir · Post by **tapir** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 3:51 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I have seen professionals playing W3 in 4/5 stone handicap games. If Black plays at ''a'', White answers at ''b'' and is happy as both corners are still open. Otherwise it starts getting interesting early. (There is a Guo Juan lecture on 5 stone handicap games featuring this, of course the lecture emphasis is on Black.)

Also, "don't play joseki" is a kind of dubious advice. Just playing differently to play differently may help your winning ratio, but people learn from repetition, so following patterns where suitable is good to learn from the handicap game. If you have to prepare a tricky variation for every handicap game, there is sth. wrong, you are not supposed to win 100% if the handicap is appropriate! If you win even less just give less handicap next time. I strongly advice against playing games against go programs giving handicap (as this usually involves overfitting, i.e. adapting to weaknesses the program will repeat again and again). In the example of the close, low pincer just jumping out and then taking outside influence is pretty good in a handicap game, you give away a little territory but evened the power balance already.

SoDesuNe · Post by **SoDesuNe** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 4:22 am

tapir wrote:Also, "don't play joseki" is a kind of dubious advice. Just playing differently to play differently may help your winning ratio, but people learn from repetition, so following patterns where suitable is good to learn from the handicap game. If you have to prepare a tricky variation for every handicap game, there is sth. wrong, you are not supposed to win 100% if the handicap is appropriate! If you win even less just give less handicap next time.

Yeah, it helps the winning ratio a lot and it's not like that I have to prepare some tricky variations. I just play a little bit different and challange my opponent to prove me wrong - some can, others can't.
What was it, I read somehwhere here? An overplay is not an overplay if the opponent can't punish it? ^^

On top of that, playing with some kind of overextensions and leaving behind weaknesses helps my Shinogi and Sabaki and the ability to play lightly a lot. And I have to calculate more myself.
I want some fun, too, you know? ; )

tapir · Post by **tapir** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 5:53 am

Playing lightly, leaving aji, making sabaki is all fine. And overplays are unavoidable within limits. But I believe much harm is done by the way high handicap games are conducted among amateurs, crazy, crazy stuff which teaches only "you are reading worse than a x dan", isn't what helps improvement. I mean, playing a stronger player should expose you to better moves and deeper thoughts and better basics. It is not about "taking it easy", but you know the idea of a teaching game has something very appealing to me, avoiding known patterns altogether is a good way to disconnect the game from the experience of the handicap taker. Good to win, bad to learn from.

SoDesuNe · Post by **SoDesuNe** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 7:25 am

Ah, I wasn't refering to handicap games played as teaching games.
If I play a handicap game to teach someone something, I will not try to win by all means. Then I mostly play very simple and observate how my opponent tries to deal with it. In those games I mostly practice counting ^^

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 7:34 am

I mostly play very simple and observate how my opponent tries to deal with it.

Indeed it's good mental work-out to observate and strategerize.

Mike Novack · Post by **Mike Novack** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 8:04 am

I am currently struggling with the same situation in reverse (trying to get down from 4 to three stones against MFOG 12.022). However I think I know the reason.

The patterns of how the game might develop are much more limited with four stones than three. So while I can almost win taking four stones (even giving komi) I rarely win at three. There are so many different ways white can play in the unoccupied corner.

Dusk Eagle · Post by **Dusk Eagle** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 10:06 am

If you're looking for a solution to make giving/taking three or four stones easier, it seems to me you're doing it backwards. The best way to improve at giving/taking three or four stones is to focus on getting stronger. Putting a lot of focus on a particular handicap against a particular opponent rather than your overall strength seems odd to me.

karaklis · Post by **karaklis** » Sat Nov 26, 2011 5:58 am

Dusk Eagle wrote:If you're looking for a solution to make giving/taking three or four stones easier, it seems to me you're doing it backwards. The best way to improve at giving/taking three or four stones is to focus on getting stronger.

Well, I hope that my focus is on getting stronger. One of my major weaknesses is to play against handi stones, that's why I am asking here. I am not sure about what you had in mind when you said "focus on getting stronger". Maybe you can clarify.

Dusk Eagle wrote:Putting a lot of focus on a particular handicap against a particular opponent rather than your overall strength seems odd to me.

Of course this is only one of many different activities. My goal is to beat the engine at 9 stones some day, and I find the transition from three to four stones quite hard.

tapir · Post by **tapir** » Sat Nov 26, 2011 7:20 am

karaklis wrote:Of course this is only one of many different activities. My goal is to beat the engine at 9 stones some day, and I find the transition from three to four stones quite hard.

Believe me, this isn't a good aim. You can "learn to beat the engine" without progressing very much by adapting to the engine (this is true for monte carlo engines as well). Play against changing opponents (aka people), if you don't have time for a full game at once, you might try turn based servers as OGS.

Magicwand · Post by **Magicwand** » Sat Nov 26, 2011 8:38 am

if i know how my opponent likes to play i have easier time planning and playing.
first time players give me taugher time. i feel like i am blind not knowing what he will play..

even if my opponent is close to my strength..i can maintain the balance pretty well against 3 stone.
4 stone..almost imposible if they are close to my strength..

Dusk Eagle · Post by **Dusk Eagle** » Sat Nov 26, 2011 10:12 pm

karaklis wrote:Well, I hope that my focus is on getting stronger.

karaklis wrote: My goal is to beat the engine at 9 stones some day

What I'm saying is that, in my opinion, focusing on the first goal will help you achieve the second goal, but focusing on the second goal (beating GNUGo with greater and greater handicap) is not a good way to achieve the first.

karaklis · Post by **karaklis** » Sun Nov 27, 2011 4:15 am

Ah now I see what you mean. Then I will try to improve on other subjects and then check every now and then whether I can beat it at 4 or more handi stones. Thanks for clarifying, Dusk Eagle.

Also the idea to have a look at MagicWand's handicap matches is a good idea. Thanks, Loons.

Also thanks to Tapir and SoDesuNe for your valuable input.

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