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 Post subject: Re: Strength Analysis Experiment v2 - w/ prize!
Post #41 Posted: Thu May 20, 2010 8:57 pm 
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My entry:
Game 1: 1k - I was impressed by the opening and at first thought this was pro. Then started taking ranks off as the game progressed. Was at 1k when middle game ended and I saw the DDK endgame. Decided it was two players who just wanted to count but am probably biased by my first impression.

Game 2: 7k - Was not impressed by the opening and early middle game. Some shape moves were missed and I did not think some of the ko threats were very threatening. Still the players know their sector lines so maybe again I am biased by my first impression.

Game 3: 4d - White played some nutty moves so I thought this was a kyu game. But Black did not respond as I expected and I realized that the nutty moves weren't so nutty after all. In fact, they looked like the moves that The Captain might play. I'm guessing that Araban included a celebrity game.

Game 4: Pro - Very precise and calculated opening with play all over the board. Middle game resignation.

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 Post subject: Re: Strength Analysis Experiment v2 - w/ prize!
Post #42 Posted: Thu May 20, 2010 10:49 pm 
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Game 1: Two 4k - In game 1, things like m19 exchange on top confuses me. This has to be a kyu game. Shape is decent, so it's higher kyu game. I'd say the game is between two 4ks on KGS. Black lost in yose.

Game 2: Pro or close to it. Game too hard to understand besides a few moves.. The exchanges are daring. The most original opening out of all the games.

Game 3: Two 1k. k7 and p12 seem very odd? Isn't the wall at p15 a lot more interesting than the atari at p12? I'm going to put this game at 1k.

Game 4: Two 10k. Obvious self atari, odd peep at d11, odd timing(see q8). Overall, cannot be anything better than 10k..

I will be sad if I call a pro game as something lower.. It will be very very sad. I doubt sol.ch will use trick games, but who knows!


After looking at the results:

Question for Sol.ch:
Besides the initial laugh/shock of pro self atari, is there a real reason to put this game in the list? I don't quite understand. The play is very very odd. Has there been an in-depth analysis on it? If there has been, can you link it? Seriously feels like both players are playing drunk/ on drugs or throwing the game.

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 Post subject: Re: Strength Analysis Experiment v2 - w/ prize!
Post #43 Posted: Fri May 21, 2010 4:29 am 
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ketchup wrote:

Question for Sol.ch:
Besides the initial laugh/shock of pro self atari, is there a real reason to put this game in the list? I don't quite understand. The play is very very odd. Has there been an in-depth analysis on it? If there has been, can you link it? Seriously feels like both players are playing drunk/ on drugs or throwing the game.


Maybe you have a wrong feeling about good shape etc. ~ the opening and middle game looks very very strong.

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 Post subject: Re: Strength Analysis Experiment v2 - w/ prize!
Post #44 Posted: Fri May 21, 2010 6:21 am 
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ketchup wrote:

Question for Sol.ch:
Besides the initial laugh/shock of pro self atari, is there a real reason to put this game in the list? I don't quite understand. The play is very very odd. Has there been an in-depth analysis on it? If there has been, can you link it? Seriously feels like both players are playing drunk/ on drugs or throwing the game.

To avoid giving out the top prize? :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Strength Analysis Experiment v2 - w/ prize!
Post #45 Posted: Fri May 21, 2010 6:49 am 
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I already gave my guesses, and then I looked at the other posts. I have two observations:

I think that it is interesting that so many people judge the 4th game just by the self atari. The rest of the game is just obviously (to me) way above my level.

The first game often gets overrated. I do not know why some people who are even stronger than what I guess the players are cannot see that the upper side was completely mishandled, showing a deep lack of understanding regarding the strength and weakness of stones.

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 Post subject: Re: Strength Analysis Experiment v2 - w/ prize!
Post #46 Posted: Fri May 21, 2010 7:04 am 
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Harleqin wrote:
I think that it is interesting that so many people judge the 4th game just by the self atari. The rest of the game is just obviously (to me) way above my level.


I didn't even look at the whole game before deciding it was high dan or pro. If I'd seen the self atari, I wonder if it would have changed my mind?

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 Post subject: Re: Strength Analysis Experiment v2 - w/ prize!
Post #47 Posted: Fri May 21, 2010 7:31 am 
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Game 1 seems seems passive and simple, which makes me think weaker kyu, but there aren't the kind of gross tactical blunders you'd see at that level. I'm gonna say 7 kyu.

Game 2 seems dan level at first blush, at least in terms of style. But it's not the sort of incomprehensible play you see from high dans. So I'll say 3 dan.

Game 3 seems heavy on knowledge. I think this could be a pro game, but I think high dan amateur is more lucky. 7 dan?

Game 4 seems strongish at first, but is marked by a truly catastrophic blunder. That might lead me to believe that it's weaker players, but I've seen blunders of that caliber in dan level games on KGS more than once, even non-blitz ones. And there are moves I know weaker players don't play. E2, for instance, is the kind of move I'm just now starting to try at my level. I'll say 1 kyu.

So, my final answer is:
1. 7 kyu
2. 3 dan
3. 7 dan
4. 1 kyu

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 Post subject: Re: Strength Analysis Experiment v2 - w/ prize!
Post #48 Posted: Fri May 21, 2010 8:34 am 
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Argh, I'm up here in Vancouver for a week, without dedicated internet... I don't have the time to do my usual analysis on 4 games. This thing came at the worst possible time for me. I'll probably respond when I get back home, if it's still up.

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 Post subject: Re: Strength Analysis Experiment v2 - w/ prize!
Post #49 Posted: Fri May 21, 2010 9:57 am 
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I'll give it a try.

6 kyu
7 dan
3 dan
9 dan

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 Post subject: Re: Strength Analysis Experiment v2 - w/ prize!
Post #50 Posted: Fri May 21, 2010 1:29 pm 
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ketchup wrote:
Question for Sol.ch:
Besides the initial laugh/shock of pro self atari, is there a real reason to put this game in the list? I don't quite understand. The play is very very odd. Has there been an in-depth analysis on it? If there has been, can you link it? Seriously feels like both players are playing drunk/ on drugs or throwing the game.

I don't know why you think q8 is bad timing. As for D11, it is a probe to ensure that black will play D10. Now white can prepare for a follow-up move around B12 (which he played the very next opportunity he got). D11 followed-up by B12 is a very common shape.

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 Post subject: Re: Strength Analysis Experiment v2 - w/ prize!
Post #51 Posted: Fri May 21, 2010 2:41 pm 
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ketchup wrote:
Question for Sol.ch:
Besides the initial laugh/shock of pro self atari, is there a real reason to put this game in the list? I don't quite understand. The play is very very odd. Has there been an in-depth analysis on it? If there has been, can you link it? Seriously feels like both players are playing drunk/ on drugs or throwing the game.

Quote:
I don't know why you think q8 is bad timing. As for D11, it is a probe to ensure that black will play D10. Now white can prepare for a follow-up move around B12 (which he played the very next opportunity he got). D11 followed-up by B12 is a very common shape.


My biggest question is why? Why is the probe at move 16(d11)? Are either player really worried about the group? It's honestly settled pretty cleanly(at least from what I understand). Why this early? Why this move when it seems to hurt the c8 extension? Why not something a lot bigger than this? There's no doubt there's aji, but does white really need to aim for it this early?

One more question:

How did black end up getting both the h17 area and the e2 area?

I'm sure I don't study this game enough, so maybe someone better than me can answer these questions.

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 Post subject: Re: Strength Analysis Experiment v2 - w/ prize!
Post #52 Posted: Sun May 23, 2010 12:32 pm 
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Just noting, I'm still fully intent on doing this... I just need a moment where I have enough time and internets to do it.

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 Post subject: Re: Strength Analysis Experiment v2 - w/ prize!
Post #53 Posted: Sun May 23, 2010 4:55 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Strength Analysis Experiment v2 - w/ prize!
Post #54 Posted: Mon May 24, 2010 12:02 pm 
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Okay, I'll take a stab at it without looking at other answers.
1. 9 kyu Not ddk, but hardly any understanding of basic opening.
2. 6 kyu Pretty bad shape.
3. 2 dan It looked a little bad, but I feel that they are strong.
4. 6 dans under a 10s b/y blitz probably. It was extremely exciting until that point... XP
Thank you Araban. It was really fun watching these.
now it's time to see how really far off I am XD

Edit: ahehehe... I looked over the second game again... XP I was looking at it thinking, there are so many cutting points, but it was much more tenacious, so maybe it should've been much higher.
I'm guessing we judge things based of our strengths. Mine is looking out for cuts and trying to read them out. I felt that a ko at the beginning was unnecessary so I totally misjudged it. XP I messed up didn't I?
Edit #2: after seeing #1 again, I believe that all are KGS dan levels now, except #4.

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 Post subject: Re: Strength Analysis Experiment v2 - w/ prize!
Post #55 Posted: Mon May 24, 2010 10:59 pm 
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Yo!
Sol, when do you provide the answer, I'm going crazy while checking the thread every day ^_^

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 Post subject: Re: Strength Analysis Experiment v2 - w/ prize!
Post #56 Posted: Mon May 24, 2010 11:55 pm 
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Jonas wrote:
Yo!
Sol, when do you provide the answer, I'm going crazy while checking the thread every day ^_^

Waiting for Violence pretty much :p.

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 Post subject: Re: Strength Analysis Experiment v2 - w/ prize!
Post #57 Posted: Tue May 25, 2010 12:02 am 
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Araban wrote:
Jonas wrote:
Yo!
Sol, when do you provide the answer, I'm going crazy while checking the thread every day ^_^

Waiting for Violence pretty much :p.

While I think it is polite to wait for somebody who has told that he will participate when he can, I think in the future it might be a good idea to announce a set deadline for answers.

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 Post subject: Re: Strength Analysis Experiment v2 - w/ prize!
Post #58 Posted: Tue May 25, 2010 12:27 am 
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tj86430 wrote:
Araban wrote:
Jonas wrote:
Yo!
Sol, when do you provide the answer, I'm going crazy while checking the thread every day ^_^

Waiting for Violence pretty much :p.

While I think it is polite to wait for somebody who has told that he will participate when he can, I think in the future it might be a good idea to announce a set deadline for answers.

I'll set the deadline to tomorrow by 10 then, sorry sorry.

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 Post subject: Re: Strength Analysis Experiment v2 - w/ prize!
Post #59 Posted: Tue May 25, 2010 12:37 am 
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Araban wrote:
tj86430 wrote:
Araban wrote:
Waiting for Violence pretty much :p.

While I think it is polite to wait for somebody who has told that he will participate when he can, I think in the future it might be a good idea to announce a set deadline for answers.

I'll set the deadline to tomorrow by 10 then, sorry sorry.

What I actually meant was setting the deadline when the problem/competition is published. Now that everybody already knows that we are waiting for Violence it's fine, he will answer as soon as possible (although we don't know when that will be) and everybody will be happy.

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 Post subject: Re: Strength Analysis Experiment v2 - w/ prize!
Post #60 Posted: Tue May 25, 2010 1:30 am 
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Must admit, I'm not too fussed either way - I'm just glad that Araban is hosting a fun competition :)

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