How many fuseki are you comfortable with?

Shaddy · Post by **Shaddy** » Sat Jan 07, 2012 1:13 pm

Everyone sdk or better knows a few joseki: at least 5 or so, I'd think. But how many popular fuseki do you know? Of course, you don't need to know fuseki that well to get pretty strong, but it's useful in tournaments sometimes. Check off a fuseki if you're comfortable playing as black or white and you know some standard variation(s), including stuff like what not to do. For example:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 9 . . . 8 . . 0 . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . a 3 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

To know how to play against the mini-chinese, I guess, would consist of knowing this variation and the followup, esp. that an approach around b is not so good and how to play if there is a black stone at a instead of 3. To be comfortable playing with it or against it is a different thing: I dislike playing against the Chinese fuseki and generally approach the 3-4 immediately when it looks like my opponent might play the Chinese.

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Sat Jan 07, 2012 3:29 pm

I like playing f17 at g17 as black in your diagram.

Shaddy · Post by **Shaddy** » Sat Jan 07, 2012 4:59 pm

That's also seen, but it's older. The idea is that black leans heavily on white's group to develop the right side, and white becomes pretty thick. Then black wants to keep his stones far away from that thickness, so he prefers f17 to g17.

hyperpape · Post by **hyperpape** » Sat Jan 07, 2012 8:37 pm

I was tempted to answer none. But there are three fuseki that I play typically (double 3-4, orthodox, mini chinese), then play around with others once in a while.

daniel_the_smith · Post by **daniel_the_smith** » Sat Jan 07, 2012 10:46 pm

I feel like answering "none"... It is true that I often play rotating 3-4, but it's also true that I know almost none of the low approach joseki...

Loons · Post by **Loons** » Sun Jan 08, 2012 1:51 am

I am taking "comfortable" to mean "playing white, wouldn't accidentally lose the game during fuseki against it on a good day". In general I roughly remember the important points and the simpler usual joseki and deviations for all of those.

Are people generally more comfortable in these fuseki than in taisha/nadare/magic sword joseki focused fuseki?

tapir · Post by **tapir** » Sun Jan 08, 2012 4:10 am

Many fuseki only arise if both players are willing to play it and avoiding them is no big deal. I personally don't see mini-chinese and kobayashi against me - so I am in a way comfortable with them

Dusk Eagle · Post by **Dusk Eagle** » Sun Jan 08, 2012 5:56 am

I am comfortable playing with or against any fuseki listed here. I know some standard variations for them, and none make me particularly uncomfortable.

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Sun Jan 08, 2012 7:12 am

I voted 'none'. ( I really wanted an option of 'all'. ) I study joseki but not fuseki. There are just too many of them. The combination of variations in four different corners makes the total number of whole board variations rise too quickly.

For fuseki, I study theory and principles, but not any particular position. I proceed from theory to practice over the board.

This may be why I get into time trouble so frequently. The up side of it is that I am seldom perplexed by weird moves. They just form one more unique fuseki which - in theory - can be dealt with by reasoned application of theory.

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Sun Jan 08, 2012 4:53 pm

Shaddy wrote:That's also seen, but it's older. The idea is that black leans heavily on white's group to develop the right side, and white becomes pretty thick. Then black wants to keep his stones far away from that thickness, so he prefers f17 to g17.

I haven't had issues with g17 so far. Yeah, maybe white might jump out at k15, for example, but it's not much pressure on black. F17 on the other hand doesn't seem to put any pressure on black.

F17 may be better, but I can't feel that at all for some reason.

Shaddy · Post by **Shaddy** » Sun Jan 08, 2012 5:15 pm

I get the feeling that Black doesn't really need to put much pressure on White. White wants to extend towards the mini-chinese anyway, and then after that Black will lean hard to make some territory. If white doesn't extend towards the mini-chinese, black will start putting on the pressure to make it hard for white to find time to invade that corner.

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Sun Jan 08, 2012 5:25 pm

Hm. I never tried the stuff starting at q9 as black. Of course if black plans to play that sequence a large keima is too far. I guess I could try playing q9 next time.

logan · Post by **logan** » Sun Jan 08, 2012 7:07 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Standard 19x19 go board $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Both a and b are playable. The choice is rather a matter of personal taste. Both were being professionally explored and researched around the same time, with most of the important early research and patterns formed from 1998-2002. So neither is older or newer than the other.

Nonetheless, both a and b enable drastically different responses from both players. For example:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Standard 19x19 go board $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . a O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 O 7 . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 1 2 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 4 . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X 8 . | $$ | . . . . . X . b . . X . . . 0 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The attachment of Black 1 can lead to this exchange. Afterwards, both sides are busy with a and b. However, if Black's marked stone were at c instead, then the push of a is diminished for Black, yet remains just as powerful for White.

Another example:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Standard 19x19 go board $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , W . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . 3 , X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . a . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This is one viable response for White. After Black finishes with a or b, the distance of the marked White & Black stones give White good options in this area later. But if the large keima (c) were chosen by Black instead, then White's circled stone is contained more strongly while the corner territory is looser.

I hope it's okay if I add that ... I believe the most important position to understand in the Mini-Chinese is the refutation to this White reply:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Standard 19x19 go board $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

a is the proper refutation, but the difficult part is to discover why this is. Good luck!

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Sun Jan 08, 2012 7:30 pm

Cool post, logan!

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 8:15 am

I selected all of them, as I don't feel any sort of dread playing with or against any of the listed fuseki patterns, and I feel like I know enough about each to not make dog's meat out of playing (well, any more than usual).

That being said, given how badly I play in the opening ... perhaps I should have said "none"?

Life In 19x19