Where to start with group joseki lesson for beginners?

[msgreg]

We're starting joseki lessons tomorrow at our club meeting. Anyone have advice on what to start with? The audience members are beginners weaker than 20k. It would be nice to take 10-20 minutes tops. A link to an online lesson that I could follow would be ideal. Must stick to no more than 11x11 and ideally 9x9 or less (that's my demo board size).

[judicata]

As I'm sure you've considered, at the beginner level, teaching joseki in itself is practically useless. So I'd just pick the most common joseki from the knight's move approach to the 4-4, and the high approach to 3-4, and explain the general purpose of the moves--focusing on settling a group and making a base. Then the point is not learning the joseki (since, if they manage to remember it, their opponents won't cooperate), but on the principles. Anything beyond that is not really of practical use.

[jts]

Are joseki lessons for beginners a good idea? Especially on a 9x9 board, where you clearly can't give them any ideas about using joseki in context. Doesn't that just encourage the idea that joseki are for memorizing?

Maybe you could choose a tesuji or a fundamental principle that you like, and then use joseki in which it arises to illustrate it.

[msgreg]

Good points. These aren't total beginners...probably 26k-24k. So they've played a few games.

The 9x9 or 11x11 would represent a corner of the board, not the entire board.

More ideas / opinions / details welcome!

[Bill Spight]

With a beginning audience I would stick to KISS (Keep It Simple, Sister). For instance:

$$B
$$ ----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . 3 . . . . . .
$$ | . . 1 , . . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ ----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . 3 . . . . . .
$$ | . . 1 , . . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

starts in the corner because it is easier to make a secure group in the corner than anywhere else on the board, and it is easier to make territory. If White plays elsewhere, Black can play to enclose the corner. Black makes a stable group, and Black can expect around 11 pts. of territory in the corner. But Black can also expect an additional 15 - 20 points worth of territory from this enclosure. Depending on how the game develops, Black may trade these potential points for points elsewhere, or for reducing White's potential points. Most of the game is about taking away the opponent's potential points. Typically only about one potential point in seven ends up being left on the board at the end of the game.

$$B
$$ ----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . 2 . . 3 . . .
$$ | . . 1 , . . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ ----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . 2 . . 3 . . .
$$ | . . 1 , . . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

The approach at prevents Black from making an enclosure and challenges Black for the corner. Black has a slight advantage in this corner, which is why White often plays in an empty corner instead of making an approach. Black can play elsewhere, of course, but is a two space pincer, which prevents White from making a base on the top side. This joseki was popular a few hundred years ago, and is still played today.

$$B
$$ ----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . 5 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ ----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . 5 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Unlike the 3-4, on the 4-4 settles the corner in one play, in a way. It does not make territory in the corner so all of its value is potential. It is also a flexible play, since it can develop quickly on either the top side or the left side. If White plays elsewhere, does not make much territory in the corner, unlike the previous enclosure. Another move, , is necessary to secure the corner. is a smaller play than the previous two plays. became popular in the 20th century, and remains popular today.

$$B
$$ ----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . .
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ ----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . .
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

This joseki is popular today. Of course, Black can pincer , but the simple response at is good. Black usually replies to , to prevent a double approach like a White play at 3.

$$B
$$ ----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . .
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ ----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . .
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

White often continues with the slide, , to challenge Black in the corner and to start to make a base for . Black frequently leaves this position as is for a while.

$$B
$$ ----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 5 . . 2 . . 6 . .
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ ----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 5 . . 2 . . 6 . .
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

makes a base for Black and threatens to pincer . White extends to to make his own base.

And so on.

[RobertJasiek]

Show only josekis with up to about 8 stones. Keep your stones connected. Continue if your group is still unstable (which means about: next opposing move can attack it harshly). Decide which side (upper or left) of the corner is the most important. Repeat until everybody always gets these ideas right.

[msgreg]

Turns out, I was a little too ambitious. Most of the group benefitted from a general discussion of openings / tenuki. And a short example of a knight's attack on 4-4 and response to that attack, along the lines of what judicata and jts mentioned. I don't think it was as thorough as it could have been, but it was at a perfect level for most of the group. Thank you all for your input. I'll be following Bill's example at a future joseki lesson, perhaps one or two months from now.

Robert, I really like your ideas. However, I think most of our group has difficulty identifying when "next opposing move can attack it harshly". Everything else you mentioned is totally appropriate to the group. We'll be doing other excercises like Life & Death problems / contest that may help the group identify when a single-move harsh attack can be played.

It seems we're taking it slow, but making forward progress. Keeping it fun is the whole idea!

Member feedback: first unsolicited comment "that was fun!"

Thanks everyone!

[RobertJasiek]

$$B
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . O . 1 .
$$ | . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . O . 1 .
$$ | . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Is the possibility of attacking harshly too difficult for your audience? Not enough room for 2 eyes locally. I think that is easier than explaining a full stability definition like in http://home.snafu.de/jasiek/Joseki_2_Sample.pdf

[msgreg]

[quote="RobertJasiek"Not enough room for 2 eyes locally.[/quote]
Excellent. I know it doesn't cover all cases, but it covers most. Worded this way it is very easy to explain and perfect for beginners. Thank you!

[Magicwand]

i think every korean including me start with below.
tell them to play this joseky only for every game. that is what i did when i started.
it has many variations that are very important for beginners.

$$B
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 7 6 2 . . 8
$$ | . . . 1 . 3 4 . .
$$ | . . . . . 5 . . .
$$ | . . . 9 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 7 6 2 . . 8
$$ | . . . 1 . 3 4 . .
$$ | . . . . . 5 . . .
$$ | . . . 9 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

for example...why below variation will be unsuccessful for white.
you can write a book on below variation only. and it is important.

$$B
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 7 6 2 . . .
$$ | . . . 1 8 3 4 . .
$$ | . . . 0 9 5 . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 7 6 2 . . .
$$ | . . . 1 8 3 4 . .
$$ | . . . 0 9 5 . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]