Recently Tami made a very interesting post giving 4 principles amateurs don't seem to get (http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/viewto ... =57&t=4843).
One principle, play where your opponent would want to play, sometimes bothers me. Consider the following local position:
Lets say black just played the last move. In similar situations, I've seen pros extend:
Ok, cool. But if I were black and had sente, I feel much better to play here:
Do you literally play where the opponent would play, or just the vicinity?
I have another example if it turns out being needed.
Play where your opponent would want to play
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Kirby
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HermanHiddema
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Re: Play where your opponent would want to play
Like all such proverbs, it is a guideline, which does not always apply, and should not be taken too literally.
The lesson of the proverb is: A good way to find good moves is to think about where your opponent would like to play next, what the goal of his move is, and how you can prevent him from achieving that goal.
In your example, white wants to extend to stabilise his group. Therefore, you want to play in such a way that prevents him from stabilising his group. The way to do that is to prevent his extension. How to prevent it is then up to you, there are several moves you might consider, and you should choose one based on the whole board.
The lesson of the proverb is: A good way to find good moves is to think about where your opponent would like to play next, what the goal of his move is, and how you can prevent him from achieving that goal.
In your example, white wants to extend to stabilise his group. Therefore, you want to play in such a way that prevents him from stabilising his group. The way to do that is to prevent his extension. How to prevent it is then up to you, there are several moves you might consider, and you should choose one based on the whole board.
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tapir
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Re: Play where your opponent would want to play
Is this really a question? (Didn't you answer it already?)Kirby wrote:Do you literally play where the opponent would play, or just the vicinity?
There is nothing wrong with not taking proverbs literally, but this doesn't mean one needs to fix them. You will never arrive at a set of rules that you can apply literally. Proverbs do highlight principles and guide your attention to points you might have missed otherwise, they are not at all meant as a set of rules to be applied mindlessly. In fact, I believe even looking for such always-correct-rules-to-best-play is harmful.
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Kirby
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Re: Play where your opponent would want to play
Great explanation. Thanks, herminator. It makes sense to use this as a way as a starting point to find a good objective.HermanHiddema wrote:Like all such proverbs, it is a guideline, which does not always apply, and should not be taken too literally.
The lesson of the proverb is: A good way to find good moves is to think about where your opponent would like to play next, what the goal of his move is, and how you can prevent him from achieving that goal.
In your example, white wants to extend to stabilise his group. Therefore, you want to play in such a way that prevents him from stabilising his group. The way to do that is to prevent his extension. How to prevent it is then up to you, there are several moves you might consider, and you should choose one based on the whole board.
Yes, I agree.tapir wrote:Is this really a question? (Didn't you answer it already?)Kirby wrote:Do you literally play where the opponent would play, or just the vicinity?
There is nothing wrong with not taking proverbs literally, but this doesn't mean one needs to fix them. You will never arrive at a set of rules that you can apply literally.
be immersed
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Mike Novack
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Re: Play where your opponent would want to play
This wasn't a good example except that the proverb pointed out the two best moves.
The point is that you only get to make one move a turn, then your opponent gets to move. Here white will want to stabilize his group and make some territory. When you take one of the desirable points to prevent that your opponent can take the other.
The proper application of this proverb is for situations where the opponent has one most desirable move, not when he or she has the choice between equivalents. Except even in this situation you might consider that the proverb did suggest good moves that preserved sente (if you take one of these moves, what happens if your opponent does not take the other).
The point is that you only get to make one move a turn, then your opponent gets to move. Here white will want to stabilize his group and make some territory. When you take one of the desirable points to prevent that your opponent can take the other.
The proper application of this proverb is for situations where the opponent has one most desirable move, not when he or she has the choice between equivalents. Except even in this situation you might consider that the proverb did suggest good moves that preserved sente (if you take one of these moves, what happens if your opponent does not take the other).
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Tooveli
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Re: Play where your opponent would want to play
The most important go proverb:
Don't follow proverbs blindly
Don't follow proverbs blindly
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Bill Spight
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Re: Play where your opponent would want to play
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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lightvector
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Re: Play where your opponent would want to play
I recall reading that in Gnugo or some other bot development, at one point one of the developers tried giving a bonus for playing at certain points if the opponent would want to play on that specific point.
The result?
The result?