??. mic (9k) vs. Chew Terr (6k) (Open)

[topazg]

Not for mic, I guess, for a few moves...

Is this the sequence you guys are talking about, or is there something better for black?

$$Bcm14 B14 Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O 4 X 3 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O X . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm14 B14 Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O 4 X 3 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O X . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

It's not good for white but definitely not a resigning type situation yet.

If all these "not for mic" posts don't clue him in that there's a good move, I don't know what will!!

18 at tenuki makes it quite a bit worse for White

[daniel_the_smith]

18 at tenuki makes it quite a bit worse for White

I guess my internal liberty counting module was off by one, hehe. Usually it's off in the other direction.

[Bill Spight]

Not for anybody.

Just kidding.

Not for the players.

Not for mic, I guess, for a few moves...

Is this the sequence you guys are talking about, or is there something better for black?

$$Bcm14 B14 Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O 4 X 3 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O X . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm14 B14 Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O 4 X 3 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O X . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

It's not good for white but definitely not a resigning type situation yet.

If all these "not for mic" posts don't clue him in that there's a good move, I don't know what will!!

18 at tenuki makes it quite a bit worse for White

I agree. Considering Black's thickness, those two stones are almost a total loss. It's almost as bad as losing two moves. IOW, worse than giving two stones.

I would not resign at this level, at this stage of the game, but I sure would play catch-up.

[mic]

Hi,

@ChewTerr: A honest "Sorry for my late reply". We currently have friends visiting and I had not time to really think about my next move.

@all: please tell me when I can read all the hidden comments I so curious

$$Wcm13 W13 Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O B . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O X . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm13 W13 Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O B . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O X . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Attached is the analysis of the moves I thought about. Probably a bit too many "white-black-white-black" where I was too biased, but at least you can see what I was thinking about

[sgf-full](;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[0.00]
GN[W13 Prisoners: B=0, W=0]DT[2010-05-24]PC[http://lifein19x19.com/]CR[eb]AW[eb][bc][ed][fd][ce][de][pp]AB[dc][dd][gd][pd][ee][fe][ch][dp]C[Diagram from http://lifein19x19.com/

W13 Prisoners: B=0, W=0]PL[B]
;CR[eb]LB[db:C][fb:D][ec:A][fc:B]C[A and B look both interesting, let's see...
but both do not really work ... (for black )

Getting desparate I looked at moves which I probably would have never read in my game (because I can not read as deep without an SGF editor), e.g C and D.

D looks nice, can not find any direct refutations, so I play it.


Side note: probably much too many pointless variations...]
(;B[ec]
;W[fc]
(;B[gc]
;W[fb]
;B[db]
;W[gb]
;B[hb]LB[hc:B][ge:A]C[looks better, but there are cuts at A and B.

The A cut gives white a bit of influence but he loses the corner, I think its ok this way.]
;W[ge]
(;B[hc]
;W[gf]
(;B[fg]
;W[ff]
;B[ef]
(;W[df]
;B[eg])
(;W[eg]
;B[df]
(;W[dg]
;B[cf]
;W[cg]
;B[bf]
;W[bg]
;B[be]
;W[cd]
;B[bd]
;W[cc]
;B[cb]
(;W[fh]LB[jc:B][ch:A]C[Looks kind of equal:

A is under severe attack
but teh area around B is influenced by blacks thickness])
(;W[bb]
;B[ba]
;W[da]))
(;W[cf]
;B[dg])))
(;B[ef]
;W[eg]
;B[df]
;W[dg]
;B[cf]
;W[cg]
;B[bf]
;W[bg]
;B[bd]
;W[ff]
;B[be]C[...more or less the same result...]))
(;B[he]
;W[gf]LB[hc:A]C[Leaves some bad aij at A]))
(;B[fb]
;W[gc]
;B[hc]
;W[gb]C[...does not work.
]))
(;B[fc]
;W[ec]
(;B[db]C[This side does not work, due to the Ko involved...]
(;W[fb]
;B[gb]
;W[gc]
;B[hc]
;W[hb])
(;W[gc]
;B[gb]
;W[fb]
;B[hc]
;W[hb]))
(;B[fb]
(;W[db]C[Ouch])
(;W[gc]
;B[db])))
(;B[db]
(;W[gc]
;B[fc]
(;W[ec]
;B[fb])
(;W[fb]
;B[ec]))
(;W[fb]
(;B[gb]
;W[gc]
;B[fc]
;W[ec]
;B[hc]
;W[hb]
;B[fc]C[Ko ])
(;B[ec]
;W[fc]
;B[gb]
;W[gc]
;B[hc]C[:(])))
(;B[fb]
(;W[ec]
;B[db]
;W[fc]
;B[gc]
;W[gb]
;B[ea])
(;W[db]
;B[ec])
(;W[fc]
;B[gc]
;W[ec]
;B[db])))[/sgf-full]

[Chew Terr]

No problem about taking your time, that's what Malkovich is about. And yes, now you can read those replies. You found the fatal flaw in my plan that was obvious to everybody besides me =D. That is one tesuji I'm going to start seeing, thanks to this game. I'll leave it to you, Mic... do you think I should resign after botching the corner, or should I keep going and see what happens? If I resign, I'd be up for another (this format is educational) or I'd certainly be willing to try the uphill battle, if it'd still be fun for you.

[mic]

Hi Chew Terr,

(out of curiosity, you should explain the origin of your name, maybe we should start a separate thread about it).

No problem about taking your time, that's what Malkovich is about. And yes, now you can read those replies. You found the fatal flaw in my plan that was obvious to everybody besides me =D.

I also did not see this, if you look at my variations before your response And to be honest, I'd never have found this move in a normal game because the obvious responses work against me only a lot of moves; the variations in the embedded sgf became quite long before I realized they did not work.

That is one tesuji I'm going to start seeing, thanks to this game. I'll leave it to you, Mic... do you think I should resign after botching the corner, or should I keep going and see what happens? If I resign, I'd be up for another (this format is educational) or I'd certainly be willing to try the uphill battle, if it'd still be fun for you.

In my opinion we should start another because after I have more or less three corners it should be easy to keep the advantage, since reading your extensive comments makes it easy to play kind of defensive now. And from an egoistical point of view I'd like to learn more Fuseki and the comments help. But if you or some of our fellow readers have a good argument for continuing, I'm in for it, too. Otherwise, I'd like to thank you for this game and you and all other posters for the extensive comments, which were very educational


Cheers,
Mic

[Chew Terr]

I'll make a name thread, I think, because I'm curious about other people(possible apostrophe)s names.

I resign.

Sure, let's just start a new game. While there's some chance I could come back, it would be extra hard in this format and it might just be me banging my head against a wall. I know I tend to resign too early, but this game's just meant to be educational. So we'll start a new one. Same settings okay with you?

Mic, thank you for the game. Though embarassing, it was certainly educational. I learned things about this corner joseki, as well as having that tesuji etched into my brain (I hope). I enjoyed it, and look forwards to playing you more.

Observers, thank you very much for your patient commentary. It really does help.

[Kirby]

Good game, folks. About resigning, I think you shouldn't resign if you think that you have a chance. Of course it's your choice at any time. Others may have different opinions about this, though. In any case, good game!

[daniel_the_smith]

Given the format, I think resigning is probably appropriate as the chance of a comeback is probably remote. I wouldn't resign a club game just yet.

[mic]

Mic, thank you for the game. Though embarassing, it was certainly educational. I learned things about this corner joseki, as well as having that tesuji etched into my brain (I hope). I enjoyed it, and look forwards to playing you more.

Yes, again, I wanted to thank you. About the tesuji. I think I'll never forget it again. Can't remember when I have looked at one position for such a long time

Cheers,
Mic

[mic]

If all these "not for mic" posts don't clue him in that there's a good move, I don't know what will!!

What made me realize that there is a good move was the fact that all my "standard" moves were devastating for me and I was franatically trying to find something that worked

- Mic

[mic]

I would not resign at this level, at this stage of the game, but I sure would play catch-up. [/hide]

Playing catch-up is quite difficult in a game where you explain your catch-up strategy to your opponent, too

- Mic

[topazg]

If there's one comment I will make, I think the format probably means even games are more useful, both because the handicap is naturally reduced and also because it's a more "natural" fuseki that way.