going to a club ?

[otenki]

Hi guys,

I'm a beginner who currently plays on kgs.
I think my rank is somewhere around 20k although kgs gives me the wierd rank of [16k?].
While playing on kgs is fun and keeps me learning I wonder how much benefit from joining a go club.

- Are there positive, negative experiences you had ?
- Should I be of certain level in order for it to become intresting ?

I would appreciate your comments.

Thanks!
Otenki

[RBerenguel]

You should definitely go to a club. So far I know of no bad experience, in fact, it is very very unlikely to experience a bad one in any kind of board game club, unless you find just one person and happens to be a nasty one... If someone is not a good teacher for newcomers, usually other people in the club would step up before him/her so your experience will probably be great. Go on!

[karaklis]

Here in Germany we rather have organized go game evening events rather than clubs (there is a club in Hamburg afaik). When I first went to such an event more than three years ago, I was somewhere between 25 and 20k, so the weakest players there were around 15-20 stones stronger than me. While most of them were nice and even some of them played with me, it was obvious that they would have preferred to play someone stronger. After three or four times I stopped going there and said to myself that I would not come back before I have reached 5k. Now that you have brought up the topic I think it's time again to show up there and look how things are going.

[Dokuganryu]

Our city "club" meets every Saturday and play people play for 4-5 hours. It is a very nice place, of course everyone is much stronger than a newcomer, but the I haven't felt that they are not happy with playing me. Of course they would rather play someone stronger, but often there aren't so many people, or a stronger player can play simulately with few other people. Also everyone is friendly and nice. Playing face to face with a real board and stones is much better experience for me than KGS.

[hyperpape]

I started attending a club when I was not yet 20k, and it was a lot of fun. Some clubs may not have players below about 10kyu, but many if not most do.

[p2501]

When I first went to a club I was 25k or something on dgs and played against a 2k on 9x9 and 13x13 (he played simul against someone else and me). It was a lot of fun and I went there almost every week since then. My low rank was not a problem, allthough the rankrange is from 9k up to 4d).

[BaghwanB]

You are definitely ready for face-to-face play! Most clubs I've been to have at least someone (if not most everyone) who is willing to teach or play beginners (or near beginners). I would say that it is actually a big help that you are around 20k KGS so at least they wouldn't have to explain eyes or anything as basic as that.

So get out and enjoy actually placing stones on a board!

Bruce "Miss Click" Young

[Ortho]

Yes, go. I went when I was 20+ kyu and it was no problem even though only 3 or 4 people usually show up at my club. My experience is that people like to welcome new players!

[karaklis]

I didn't mean to scare anybody off from going to the local go club. Playing on a real board is definitely a thousand times better than just playing on servers, so if you have the chance to play on a real board, it is worth doing it. As for me I have the luxury that I can attend seven tourneys a year in the environment of 100 km / 60 miles, so I have plenty of opportunities to play face to face. Most people don't have that and their only chance is to go to the go club (if there is any nearby), play the stronger players and try to catch up in strength as quickly as they can.

[otenki]

Hey guys,

So I went to a club yesterday in my city and it was pretty fun.
All of the people were really friendly and helpfull.
There was no-one near my rank though, the lowest rank was somewhere around 8k or so.

I played 2 games, the first one against a 1kyu and the second one againts a 2kyu both with a huge handi.
Of course I lost both of them... but I think I know why.
I replied to most of their moves, I think I should have tenuki'd way more.

Thanks for all of the comments, they were helpfull.

Otenki

[p2501]

Cool

Of course I lost both of them... but I think I know why.
I replied to most of their moves, I think I should have tenuki'd way more.

Thats actually rarely true. Most of the time responding in high handycap games is better. You should try to respond in a way that makes it difficult for white though - so instead of tenuki respond forcefully.
Playing tenuki alot results in very complicated fights which favors the stronger player.

[otenki]

Well the problem was when I did reply to their moves all the time.
In the beginning they said I was replying everything very well but then it turned into (for me) very complicated fights all over the board...
You can guess who wins the fights by reading deepest

So I thought that if next time I would tenuki faster to lets say other corners in the game so at least I have that teritory I would have already a bit more secured teritory.
The only other way I see is learning how to kill him in a fights.

I'm reading Tesuji by james davies now, maybe that will help me with the fights

Thanks
Otenki

[bogiesan]

Hey guys,So I went to a club yesterday in my city and it was pretty fun.
All of the people were really friendly and helpfull.
There was no-one near my rank though, the lowest rank was somewhere around 8k or so.I played 2 games, the first one against a 1kyu and the second one againts a 2kyu both with a huge handi. Of course I lost both of them... but I think I know why.I replied to most of their moves, I think I should have tenuki'd way more.Thanks for all of the comments, they were helpfull.
Otenki

The problem beginners (or less capable players) have playing go against opponents who have acquired and earned their far superior skills is we just don't understand many of their moves. And most single digit kyus no longer appreciate that reality; they think you can advance from 25k to 10k by intellectualizing moves they can make automatically.

Suggest you try to hook up with one of the lower strength players and see if you can get together to play at non-club sessions for, say, one hundred games. Continue to attend the club, certainly but pick on someone your own size.

[mlund]

Well the problem was when I did reply to their moves all the time.
In the beginning they said I was replying everything very well but then it turned into (for me) very complicated fights all over the board...

The problem probably wasn't that you replied, but how you replied. The two things I learned about high handicap games this year are these:

All the handicap stones are Influence-oriented, not territorial. That's the thing with 4-4 stones in the corners and even more so with the 10-4 stones and Tengen. They don't help you win fights over corners outside of letting you make otherwise unreasonable cuts because you win early ladders. They are supposed to make it easier to press White down, grab large territories on the sides, and make it very hard for White to live in the center.

The problem is White knows these things and will try to pick fights that damage your handicap stones. He might try to force you underneath where you have less help from your handicap stones and build a wall for himself that negates almost almost all the support for nearby corners, the center, and sides. He could also trick you into taking small corners while living on the side with a clear path into the center for his living group.

One thing White will almost always do is try to get as many of his stones onto the board as soon as possible. While position is critical to the value of stones, raw numbers are still very powerful. In a 9-stone game Move 1 ends with 9 Black stones and 1 White stone. Move 3 ends with only a 5-1 ratio. Move 5 ends with a 3-1 ratio. See that global numerical superiority dwindling? Unless White lets his whole group get sealed under in a fight those stones are going to keep haunting you, gutting your handicap.

The ratio is even worse locally. When White approaches a corner Black has 1 corner stone and maybe 1 side star-point stone - plus a helpful ladder-breaker at Tengen or the opposite corner. That's really not a huge advantage in local fighting if you don't enough game experience yet to make the stones work together.

I replied to most of their moves, I think I should have tenuki'd way more.

It's not really that you need to tenuki away all the time (I mistakenly tried this very early in 6-to-9-stone games), it is that you don't have to always reply with thick play locally. You can play lightly and make advantageous trades instead of you smashing headlong into contact fighting. He approaches your 4-4 stone? Don't bother kicking it or attaching to it. Both of those make his lone stone stronger and will result in him projecting strength towards the side and the center. Consider if you can take away the double-approach from the other side to create a strong framework in response. Alternately, pincer him using the side star-point behind his approach to support your pincer. Just remember not to start pointlessly chasing him into the center. It's way too early for that.

Play lightly, laying down a good framework in the early game. Try to keep your groups connected and White's groups separated. Encirclement can develop naturally from there, and it'll force White to pick multiple fights with you before he has a solid base. Once most of the big moves in Fuseki are settled (let's say for simplicity's sake that there are no more open 2-space extensions to be made along the 3rd or 4th lines) it's the perfect time to start fighting in earnest and making thick, powerful shape connected to your living bases.

- Marty Lund

[otenki]

Intresting!
Indeed it is maybe better to play against lower kyu players now. I do this about every day now on kgs howhever. Even then I sometimes get crushed even by 12k's.
I try to play higher players every day. (this has lead me to being about 16-15k now).
At the club I have no choice howhever since there is noone that are even close to my rank.
Closest one I can play at is about 7-9 stones ... but I don't mind.
I will try to play more forcefully and less thick. Now that I think of it more indeed it might be that I played way too much contact moves while maybe I should just simply play a bit away from his shape and build teritory on the other side at the same moment.

I wonder about one more thing though... you say it might be better to pick on someone my own size... would a 6-8k work ? They are indeed still far ahead so not sure if I will notice much difference between the 2k's.

Thanks for the comments/strategies for aproaching this!
Otenki