149. Uberdude vs Magicwand

Magicwand · Post by **Magicwand** » Fri Jan 13, 2012 10:03 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O X . O , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Sat Jan 14, 2012 7:46 am

I just had another idea, inspired by one of my favourite pro games in which Lee Sedol crushed Chang Hao. This bump at h4 tries to avoid the bad shape you get from pushing out with the normal move at g5. It does make white stronger on the lower side. In Lee's game he had a shimari at a so that reduced the influence of j5. In this game I have a 3-4 stone which is maybe not as good, but at least it isn't a white corner. The top side was more played out, but I don't think that makes much difference, if anything it's better for me as I have ladders going north-east. I'm not familiar with these moves, are they even a joseki? Maybe I will study this game again and see if I can find others with this move or look in books etc. If I get the result Lee did I will be happy

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Inspired by Lee Sedol $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 6 . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 7 . . O . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O X 3 O , . . . . . , a . . | $$ | . . . 2 1 X . . . . . . . . a X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Here is the full game. It's a nice lesson in the 2-space high pincer! The lower-left is very complicated fighting. k4 is a very sharp move, it took my by surprise, maybe I can surprise Magicwand with it too ;-)

. I also love the invasion at L17, it seemed so deep to me and I would have just reduced, but Lee sees weakness it white's shape and fights excellently and ends up killing bits of the white moyo.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Wed Jan 18, 2012 3:59 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O X . O , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . 1 X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I looked at bit at that Lee Sedol bump move, it doesn't seem very common. I'm not sure what to do if white descends down. Jumping out to 5 seems obvious, but white has a to aim at which is rather annoying: black can fix the cut in sente with b but that gives white eyes. It does allow black to push out at c, but if black gets the timing wrong white might just extend at d and kill the double approach stone. Black might end up capturing the marked white stones but feel sad as overconcentrated with white profit on both sides. So I don't think I will play it.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Bump $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . d . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O c W X 3 O , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . 2 1 X . . 4 . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . a b . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Another possibility is attaching in the corner. One possible variation is like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Attach, white wedge $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O a . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . c O 4 O X . O , b . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 6 1 2 X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . 7 3 . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If white then pincers on the left side (which combines an extension with top left 4-4) I think this is a mistake as black then pushes at a in sente (maybe twice) which is a key influence point and then attacks the white stones on the lower side with b (or one point to right) which works nicely with the lower right 3-4. So I think white has to turn to connect up to j4 and then black can split the left side. But something to note after the turn is white's j4 is badly placed: it would be better one to the left as atari.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm18 Attach, white wedge, turn $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 , d . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X a b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 7 5 c . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 6 4 O O O X 3 O , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . 8 O X O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The atari at h4 is thick and if black connects white is happy to make that exchange. But black can ignore and live by cutting at c4 which makes quite a big profit. Although it damages c6 by taking its liberties black still has a nice move at d7 and then a-b-c-d follows. Black's development is nice and fast but white is thick and should profit in the upper left corner by attacking the black group on the left side. I would be happy to play this game.

When black attaches in the corner white could also hane in the corner instead of wedge. This shape comes up a lot in handicap games and black nearly always wedges. The advantage of the wedge is gives black (or white in the handi games) 2 cuts and white none. The downside is it helps black make shape (the hanging connection is nice for eyes) and the cut in the corner remains at d4 which is not only a 20+ point yose it also is spare eyes for the black group or gives peeps to help invade the left side. Also f5 ends up as an empty triangle and the wall doesn't have eyes and often even gets attacked in handi games. Quite a lot of minuses! So very often hane in the corner is a stronger move. The downside is it leaves a gap in the white wall, but black can't really exploit this yet with his own weakness at g3. The plus is no d4 cut and more territory. 13 and 14 are pretty much the only moves, then 15 is normal but could also be bump at h4. d7 is a rather funky move, d6 instead makes a nice table shape but is maybe a bit soft. Instead of 17 black could also c8, or go for the simple trade like below.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Attach, white hane $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 8 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 O . O X . O , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 2 1 3 X . 7 . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think black is ok this way too and might play it another day, but decided to play the e3 extension in the game because it's a rather complicated joseki that should be fun

.

Magicwand · Post by **Magicwand** » Wed Jan 18, 2012 6:38 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O X . O , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . 2 X X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

i have no idea what he is thinking...
this variation is well known and shouldnt require that much thinking...

i will show one variation that stronger players uses against weaker players..
see if you like it and try them on weaker players.
joseky book i read really dont cover this variation but..cut is strong and hard to find right answer for it. (i dont have answer for that cut.. i would appreciate if someone show me correct variation after this corner is settled ofcourse.)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 2 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O 1 O X . O , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . a O X X 4 b . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 6 5 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

is this correct answer????

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O 1 O X . O , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:12 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O X . O , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Expected move from white; the other option is d6 but this one is most natural and puts most pressure on my lower side stones. I remember a comment about this shape in a Go World which said the e3 move was a blind spot for professionals because black is playing himself into bad shape as j4 ends up on the shape point. Imagne black double approached a 4-4 and then for some bizarre reason tenukid, then white would attack at j4 (j4 is the shape because it means when black comes out at a and white hanes at b j4 ends up as the eye-stealing tesuji shape so black has to make an empty triangle at c or else get cut). But white tenukid to give black a nice double approach, so if black tenukis again we probably go back to something pretty even* and the c6 double approach stone also makes weaknesses in white's shape so this is an even fight.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Pros confused themselves with tewari $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 6 a c . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . 4 5 . 0 , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . 8 7 1 . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

* In fact the logic of he tenukis then later I tenuki cacnelling out is faulty. If the later tenuki is once the situation has become more urgent then it's not so good. There is a degree this is true here as the f3 stone is now heavier having added some moves to it so black has lost flexibility and can't sacrifice it.

Magicwand · Post by **Magicwand** » Thu Jan 19, 2012 6:25 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O X . O , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Thu Jan 19, 2012 7:08 am

@Uberdude:

I was about to ask why you weren't going to go Sedol on MW, but then I realized you commented about it, above:

Uberdude wrote:I looked at bit at that Lee Sedol bump move, it doesn't seem very common. I'm not sure what to do if white descends down. Jumping out to 5 seems obvious, but white has a to aim at which is rather annoying: black can fix the cut in sente with b but that gives white eyes. It does allow black to push out at c, but if black gets the timing wrong white might just extend at d and kill the double approach stone. Black might end up capturing the marked white stones but feel sad as overconcentrated with white profit on both sides. So I don't think I will play it.

$$Bcm1 Bump
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . d . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O c W X 3 O , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 1 X . . 4 . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . a b . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Bump $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . d . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O c W X 3 O , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . 2 1 X . . 4 . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . a b . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Do you think that Sedol didn't consider :w4:

, or were the variations just a bit too tricky? When you spent a lot of time thinking about the hane, I figured you were going to play this bump, but at the last minute, you changed your mind. I do the same thing, of course, but I was looking forward to seeing the bump.

Could you provide a bit more explanation on why you think the bump does not work, and what you think Sedol might have done in response to :w4:

in your diagram, above?

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:36 am

@ Kirby

I've not changed my mind at the last minute, more that I've stuck with my original plan instead of trying to be cool like Lee Sedol. Since I played the hane my plan has been this e3 extend and g5 push (see viewtopic.php?p=88654#p88654 ). Originally when I played the double-approach I was going to play the hane and then 3-3, the idea being I would accept that locally not-so-great old joseki (white thick and aims at c8) in order to get sente to make the lower right shimari (if 3-3 directly white is not so thick, but black is gote). After I played the hane I remembered that Lee Sedol game but as I am not familiar with the bump decided against it. If I was playing a significantly weaker opponent then maybe I would try it, confident that should I end up with a bad result I could catch up later. Maybe I am a little stronger than Magicwand in slow games, but certainly not much so I don't want to fall behind. I'm a fairly risk-averse player and prefer to keep the game even and gradually take advantage of my opponent's mistakes to take the lead. Lee Sedol on the other hand likes risks. I don't think he nor Chang Hao overlooked the descent down, indeed my shape feeling says extend up is the correct move. It's just I was not comfortable with that variation so I avoided it. The joseki I chose I have played many times before and have studied in some detail (there is a whole chapter of 'Dictionary of Modern Fuseki, The Korean Style' about it) so I am more comfortable with it and can also write more interesting things about it for observers.

Here's the sort of variation I read. I like it for white as black is inefficient and white is good on both sides. There are other choices, e.g. black 5 maybe doesn't need to bamboo, or a at d/f to attack the whole white group. but with this as my reference diagram (just playing intuitive moves) from which I need to find improvements I wasn't happy.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Unterdude $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . f . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X d e . 5 3 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . b c O . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O a O X 1 O , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X 9 8 2 . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . 6 7 0 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

EDIT: actually d to attack the whole group looks pretty good, if white bamboo then b4 leaves white with an L group in the corner. He can live if he gives up 6 but then the other white group loses eyes so has to extend around n3 if black g1, or else black could pincer in sente forcing white h1.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Thu Jan 19, 2012 3:40 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O X . O , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I would usually play this move on joseki autopilot mode but decided to think about it a bit more for Malkovich. When black pushes at g5 white would like to hane at g6 to use j4 to push black into bad shape, but it's rather dangerous with the e4 push and cut. So d6 attemps to fix this weakness in sente. Black could resist by poking out at g6, but then white gets to play another move on the left: c5 is most solid, d7 is more ambitious but leaves a lot of bad aji inside. Black probably then uses his influence to pincer j4 and a fight happens. There is a feeling black's g5 group is a bit heavy (it doesn't have enough space for 2 eyes on the edge) and white made a lot of points in the corner.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm15 Fight $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . 1 . 6 . 7 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O X . O , 3 . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X 5 4 . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Black still can use the aji of c6 at some point like this to build some influence and develop the g6 group. However, white has a lot of territory and later can jump in to a or even b.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm15 Build influence $$ | . . b , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 6 X O 5 . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O X . O , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If we compare this to black playing hane at d7 first we can see that gives black a much better result should white choose to go for territory at c5 (I expect white to play the good move at g6 though). The key point is white is forced to play the useless connection at d5 when black plays e6 instead of taking the stone. If white now captures the stone then black has sente where before he had gote, a huge improvement (would white next play d5 in the diagram above? I don't think so!).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm15 Build better influence $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O 3 . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 4 . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O X . O , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If white ignores, later black can pull out the stone to make more influence (don't just play c8 atari, add an extra sacrifice stone). White b7 is a mistake: too focused on simply capturing black that he gets a beautiful sente squeeze to completely seal the left side.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 More influence, white mistake $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 3 5 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 2 O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | 6 1 X O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 4 O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O X . O , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Instead white has this kosumi tesuji. This shape comes up a lot (e.g. Shaddy pointed it out to EdLee in viewtopic.php?p=89066 ) and is good to remember. If black simply plays atari at a then he does force white to take the 2 stones in sente, but ends up with a cut in the wall. Often the following funky knight's move which is also sente (threatening to play at :w4:

) is better.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 More influence, white kosumi $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 2 a X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 4 O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 X O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O X . O , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So I guess that explains why hane is joseki ;-)

But if black had a stone around c9 then I think c5 would also be another option as it means white c7 is much less powerful so after white d5 black can help the group on the bottom side.

Magicwand · Post by **Magicwand** » Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:12 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O X . O , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Magicwand · Post by **Magicwand** » Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:42 pm

below variation is good for white IMO so i dont think my opponent will play that.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O 3 . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O 2 O X . O , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X 4 . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

he might play as below..but.....
black seem to have weakness somewhere..but i can not read team at first glance.
it might work for black..but i dont think it will fit my opponent's style.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O 1 3 O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O X . O , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

if i am black..i would play as below..but i dont see good followup move for white.
i selected below..but somehow i dont feel too good about that shape... i dont know why..

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O 2 . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O X . O , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . 1 . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

conclusion: i have no idea what my opponent will play. soi will not worry about it and wait till he makes his move.

mitsun · Post by **mitsun** » Fri Jan 20, 2012 11:11 am

Magicwand wrote:
if i am black..i would play as below..but i dont see good followup move for white.
i selected below..but somehow i dont feel too good about that shape... i dont know why..
$$Bcm11 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O 2 . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . O , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . 1 . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O 2 . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O X . O , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . 1 . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If B is going to protect the cut as shown above, it makes sense to get in a forcing move first, as shown below. This exchange helps B a little in the corner (for example if W later plays C5), and it makes the B side connection feel more natural. I believe this is the most common joseki variation.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O 4 . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O 2 O X . O , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . 3 . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

oren · Post by **oren** » Fri Jan 20, 2012 11:45 am

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Fri Jan 20, 2012 1:34 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 7 . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O X . O , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Magicwand · Post by **Magicwand** » Fri Jan 20, 2012 3:11 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O 8 O X . O , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

below is well known joseki.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O 0 . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 7 . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O 8 O X . O , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . 9 . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

i think yoda norimoto once tried this move...and lost.
and i dont think my opponent will play this...
but he can choose to play..

but i dont think he will

dont ask me what white played ..i dont remember.

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149. Uberdude vs Magicwand

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Re: 149. Uberdude vs Magicwand

Re: 149. Uberdude vs Magicwand

Re: 149. Uberdude vs Magicwand

Re: 149. Uberdude vs Magicwand

Re: 149. Uberdude vs Magicwand

Re: 149. Uberdude vs Magicwand

Re: 149. Uberdude vs Magicwand

Re: 149. Uberdude vs Magicwand

Re: 149. Uberdude vs Magicwand

Re: 149. Uberdude vs Magicwand

Re: 149. Uberdude vs Magicwand

Re: 149. Uberdude vs Magicwand

Re: 149. Uberdude vs Magicwand

Re: 149. Uberdude vs Magicwand