I did not renew my AGA membership.

[imabuddha]

Sorry but I am not following.

Neither am I.

[rubin427]

Wait, are you saying that dealing with the AGA is like a (my?) spouse?...

You are giving my comment far more thought than I am giving yours. To my own surprise, that means I am trolling here. Please excuse me as I duck out from further discussion.

apologies.

[illluck]

Not to be discouraging, but I've been lost for a while now.

I did not read many posts.

After trying a minute or so, it seemed pointless.
No reason to.

Sure I want to follow the discussion.

But, for example, attempts to decipher the motivation behind the OP were essentially fruitless. Even requests of a pretty mundane and simple nature did not receive reasonable responses. Unimportant in the larger scope of the poster's... actions, but seemingly emblematic of how his communication is "sincere". Or not sincere, as you may wish to think.

Unresponsive and impenetrable.

[TL;DR segment]

I suppose if I wanted to make constructive posts I'd have to have to read and research.

Shame it is. In my view, a shame.

Just saying. My views. Meaningless, really. Feel free to disregard entirely.

Orz illluck

[direwolf]

Details could be posted, but why bring out all the dirty laundry. if you take your time and read the AGA board minutes, you will see a cycle of issues that keep appearing.

Even in the last miniutes posted (oct 2011 and where are the last three months of minutes) they state...

Without an established procedure, the review of the President’s performance has always gotten bogged down in minutiae and partisan bickering leading to nothing being done and faulty practices continue.

So the cycle continues because no one can agree or work on things.

[Kaya.gs]

Passing by this post, this brings up an important subject overall which is how to handle national associations.

This problem is absolutely widespread in go, almost all national clubs in the world are extremely weak institutionally. The AGA is probably one of the biggest out there in the west and for the very light exchange i saw by the board members here, it has the same feeling as Argentina's (and other clubs) problems.

The main issue i see is that clubs don't offer a valuable service to go players. When people receive value for what they give, you can gather funds to grow organically.
In Argentina the single benefit i got from my club was using the library: thats about it. And im one of the very few that devours it, most people dont use it. And people that are just a little away (20km) just wouldnt make the trip to get a book every month. They only pay for charity, or being hostage of the national tournament(its not open).

The other thing i notice about the AGA, which i might be totally wrong as i have payed partial attention to it in my lifetime, is that it doesnt have a clear face. I would rarely know who to talk to, or what to do if wanted to organize something with the AGA. I personally have contacted the president, but other people wouldn't want to do that. From afar, i get the impression the people working on it change very frequently.

The E-J is pretty good, its the best news source in the west right now. But I'm also a little discontent with them. In the past 3 years, i have sent over 20 e-mails, and only a few have been answered, with weeks delay and no fruit.This includes offering them a series of already edited articles i wrote about Go, which are ready to be published.
The very announcement of Kaya was done without talking to us, even though i sent a string of weekly emails from over a month before.

Now these are particular issues, and of course things boil down to that eventually, but the real issue i think is the lack of a measurable strategic plan. I think that is the #1 reason for failure for go associations in the whole world (including japan and korea).
There is a huge difference between saying "we spread go" and saying "we are going to create 100 new players in the next 6 months". The first one is never wrong, so it never provokes a change of tactic.
Go associations are not young, they have decades already but the strategy seems to be the same, one already proven to be unsuccessful, if you compare it to the growth of other elements in the gaming industry.

[direwolf]

in another part of the october minutes they state...

there have been cases in the past where not only Board members’ families but also significant others and maybe domestic partners were paid by the AGA, which is a conflict of interest.

So now we have partisan bickering, nothing being done, faulty practices, and a conflict of interests. This is just from the last board minutes. Should I continue?

And people wonder why people are leaving the AGA?

[Mef]

Cross tables, rank graphs, a place to upload commented games...
http://agagd.usgo.org/

The ability to upload commented games is either not well known or not something people care about. I'd like to assume it's the former (at least since people do upload games to the European Go Database).

I'd suggest that there be an ejournal article about it, and that there be a habit of uploading the games that are broadcast to the USGO accounts on KGS.

It's also not obvious how you can see the game records that are currently included in the database. Is there a quick way to view that?

I'll pass both suggestions on to the ejournal and database manager in a day or two--just putting this out there so y'all can comment.

I'd also like to see this feature used more (once I can find the game records I think I'll try to upload my own games...). A mention in the EJ would be a great way to raise awareness. Perhaps it will become more popular once the upload functionality gets automated.

[msgreg]

I for one appreciate the detailed minutes from the AGA. Robert's rules state that the content of discussion need not be transcribed in the minutes: only motions and vote results should be in the minutes. I expect for just the reason as demonstrated in this thread. The quotes from the minutes are taken somewhat out of context, being the opinion of one of the board members, not the board as a whole or even a plurality. There are often people who believe the sky is falling and that the ship should be abandoned and that the president and board are doing a horrible job.

My advice: run for president if you think you can do better. At least follow Daniel's path and run for the board. Start attending meetings, learn the personalities, start affect change from within. Help rewrite the bylaws, or suggest bylaw wording to your representative. It's much harder than I think you think. You must balance all the different opinions on the board. You must come up with standardized policies and procedures that work for a variety of situations. Change takes working with others, change takes careful assessment of all known information and opinion, change takes bravery to put yourself out there while people criticize, change takes understanding beyond any superficial analysis in this thread, change takes endless persuasion of others, change takes years.

From my reading of the minutes' the board seems to be somewhat focused at the right level. The discussions, opinions, and disagreements seem fairly normal.

Instead of rehashing the AGA's perceived problems continue to make concrete and viable suggestions.

For example: for keeping up with requests and communications, consider investigating an issue tracking system like Redmine or a hosting service. This could be a next priority after the majority of the website migration has occurred.

Also, one huge benefit to local clubs perhaps could be a national registration system where national and club dues are collected and club dues get funneled back to the club. First determine how many clubs could/would use such a system.

[hyperpape]

The payments issue is real, and unfortunate. It's also actively being discussed, and it looks like it's being fixed. That it's taken until now to be dealt with is a sign that things often did fester, but I think that's an example where the AGA is improving.

And I see plenty of other examples. I think it's good that Daniel, but also Andy and Lisa have spent time communicating with people here on the boards. Hilltopgo (Mike Malveaux?) is doing great work, the website migration is taking time, but I've seen lots of evidence that people are working hard on it. I remember a lot of discussions with seigenblues on the board that suggested he was doing a lot of interesting work.

The AGAGD is another relatively recent (2, 3 years old?) development, and a really welcome one.

I guess I can't prove any of these things will matter in the long term, but I have a hard time thinking the AGA is in stasis or headed for disaster.

P.S. I'm pretty sure these forums have an attrition rate of over 50%, even excluding the 500 or so registered users who never posted. Heck, I bet the game of go has a 90% attrition rate in the West.

[p2501]

Popcorn anyone?

[direwolf]

I think you missed my earlier post. I have been involved in the go community with the AGA and internationally. I was a long time AGA member and will not renew.

the quotes from the minutes are taken somewhat out of context, being the opinion of one of the board members, not the board as a whole or even a plurality. There are often people who believe the sky is falling and that the ship should be abandoned and that the president and board are doing a horrible job.

You are right in that comments are not typically put into minutes, but this is a unique view into the internal workings of the AGA. A director is not a sole member of the board, they are elected to represent a geographic area. If he/she goes off and makes wild comments, there can and should be penalties. Most of these people have been re-elected you would think that the area that they are representing would not do that if they were acting against their wishes. Also, before making these comments or proposals, I for one would consult with the groups that I represent and see if this is a track that should be taken.

So either way, you have a segment that is unhappy with the way things are being done and/or there is a total disconnect of the leadership and the membership. Which is it?

with the comment about contacting chapter representitives...

Smith said he called an expired chapter representative in Montana, and he said he hadn’t thought about the AGA in ten years. Smith said the Board should contact chapter representatives more than once per decade.

This along with my past experiences with the AGA, I can only assume there is both going on here.

[gowan]

As for the comment about ineffective regional representatives being re-elected, I think most ordinary AGA members don't pay attention to most of what goes on at board meetings. Most ordinary members just want to play go and aren't interested in AGA politics so they don't know whether their regional representative has an axe to grind or is out to get another AGA official. Also, if I recall correctly, it has been difficult to find people to run for positions on the board. The critics who go on and on about the AGA not taking up their (obvious) ideas should just put their money where their mouth is. More suggestions of what to do aren't needed but more people who are actually willing to do some work are sorely needed. We all know that the AGA is an organization managed by volunteers, almost all of whom have a full time job outside the AGA. Recently a list of jobs that could be done as one time projects by volunteers was published and discouragingly few people actually offered to do any of the jobs. I certainly understand that people don't have time to take on a job for the AGA but someone who passionately criticizes ought to have some energy to put into actually doing something productive rather than just criticize.

[bearzbear]

Perhaps the kind gentlemen in Germany and Austria have a perspective that is removed by a few thousand miles of water, and the fact that the EGF is vibrant along with the Go scene by comparison to what has been going on in the USA for decades now?

Again, folks seem to be having a difficulty discerning between specific and individual actions and let's say "corrections" that are currently being taken for the good and the general and overall strategy, policy and execution at present and over long years of time.

It's great that things are being "fixed" as they break. Maintenance is good. Everyone is happy about that.

Ok, after the maintenance is done, then what? More of the same? Continue on as-is? Soldier on? Everything is just fine, so no need to re-think or do anything differently?

WRT the detailed minutes. It is good that this information was made public. That perhaps technically and legally (I do not know the answer) none of it need be, begs the point entirely.

WRT "concrete" proposals and "volunteers" to carry them through? Sure. Absolutely. But it is the job and task of the leadership to not only solicit proposals and ideas but to provide an effective means by which they can be evaluated and implemented (where and when possible and appropriate). The key here is that there is no effective means by which a member can hold much of a conversation with the leadership, especially where the topic is not particularly "enjoyable".

As far as my "concrete" proposals, I made them. They might seem a bit strong or outlandish. But who has thought them through, truly? Who has said even "maybe"?

Do you see the emotionally charged and highly defensive reactions here in a public forum? Most people just walk away - know why? Because Go is just NOT that important to them. It's not worth fighting for or about.
For things to go well with the AGA the leadership simply has to self recognize the need, and be willing to make changes.

These sorts of messages - not from me at all - but from others have bombarded the AGA at regular intervals and times for DECADES. It's not deniable and not NEWS.

Regarding this organization & membership, the idea that people drop out anyway, so there is nothing to do is absurd. Stating what was said earlier in a very simple way.

_-_-bearzbear


PS. Daniel I did send you an email, no reply yet...

[direwolf]

In the past I have offered my services to the AGA for anything that is needed. I got no response in return. I never pushed an Idea or an agenda, I offered services. Help with the aga website if needed. help with database systems, if needed. just tell me what you need and I will do it. I work for one of the largest state college systems in portal/systems integration and you would think that the AGA would have a need.

I have assisted in organizing 2 go club around where I live. Assisted in running go tournaments for clubs and also online. Attended congresses and sat in General assembly meetings. So, please do not do the... you gotta step up to the plate. I have done that.

[direwolf]

I forgot to add. I understand that most people just want to play go. I am the same way.

BUT.... what the AGA leadership does reflects on us as a Go community. If the leadership is seen as having issues we will never have any good standing.

Let me just put it this way. I know of some congress organizers who went to dinner with a very strong foreign pro. The pro spoke impecable english. when talk came around to the AGA and what it was thought of outside the US... The pro pretended not to understand English. you read between the lines.