154. illuck vs. Celebrir

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Celebrir
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Re: 154. illuck vs. Celebrir

Post by Celebrir »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 illluck vs. Celebrir - Prisoners: 0-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . O . . O . X . O . X . . X . . |
$$ | O . O X . . . . . , . . O O X , . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . O . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . , . . . O O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . X . X X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


While thinking about it I found a move which looks even more intresting than the keima:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 illluck vs. Celebrir - Dia. 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . O . . O . X . O . X . . X . . |
$$ | O . O X . . . . . , . . O O X , . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . O . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . B . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . b . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 1 a . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . , . . . O O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . X . X X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This can become far more complicate than 'a' and is qwuite risky with the strong white group at the bottom. But I feel behind and therefore I guess I have to complicate the game. 'b' was a other move I thought about but I have a hope that a big fight might start which allows me to attack :bc: 'b' seems to calm. Some variations:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 illluck vs. Celebrir - Dia.2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . O . . O . X . O . X . . X . . |
$$ | O . O X . . . . . , . . O O X , . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . O . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . 9 4 . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 3 . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . , 7 5 6 O O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . X 8 X X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This cut looks intresting for me. I don't know who would win this fight but it might become good for me.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 illluck vs. Celebrir - Dia. 3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . O . . O . X . O . X . . X . . |
$$ | O . O X . . . . . , . . O O X , . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . O . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . 4 3 . O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 6 5 . O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . X 7 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . 9 8 2 . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . , . . . O O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . X . X X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If B tries something like this as a calm reduction I'll still try to attack.
illluck
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Re: 154. illuck vs. Celebrir

Post by illluck »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 illluck vs. Celebrir - Prisoners: 0-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . O . . O . X . O . X . . X . . |
$$ | O . O X . . . . . , . . O O X , . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . O . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 7 O . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . , . . . O O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . X . X X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White's last move feels a bit overplay-ish, but I can't find a sequence that punishes without putting myself in danger (the J3 and K3 are annoying points). I feel like I'm slightly ahead, so don't want to go too crazy (e.g. M7). I would be happy if I solidify in sente here.
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Re: 154. illuck vs. Celebrir

Post by Celebrir »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 illluck vs. Celebrir - Prisoners: 0-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . O . . O . X . O . X . . X . . |
$$ | O . O X . . . . . , . . O O X , . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . O . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . 8 . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . , . . . O O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . X . X X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think my only option here is the hane. All other shapes look bad to me and I see no reason to not play it:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 illluck vs. Celebrir - Dia.1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . O . . O . X . O . X . . X . . |
$$ | O . O X . . . . . , . . O O X , . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . O . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . 1 3 . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . 2 . . . O O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . X . X X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If he plays calm I get more thickness which is exactly what I want. If he cuts I have two options:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 illluck vs. Celebrir - Dia.2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . O . . O . X . O . X . . X . . |
$$ | O . O X . . . . . , . . O O X , . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . O . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 7 4 6 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . 5 1 2 . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O 3 . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . , . . . O O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . X . X X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think this fight would be good for me. My stones at the left still help me and his bottom becomes a little bit weaker.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 illluck vs. Celebrir - Dia.3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . O . . O . X . O . X . . X . . |
$$ | O . O X . . . . . , . . O O X , . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . O . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . 7 8 . . O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 9 . . . O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 3 5 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . 1 2 4 . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O 6 . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . , . . . O O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . X . X X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'm not sure about the exact variation, but the aim here is to prepare an attack at the top group. I'll think more about it when he really cuts.
illluck
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Re: 154. illuck vs. Celebrir

Post by illluck »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 illluck vs. Celebrir - Prisoners: 0-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . O . . O . X . O . X . . X . . |
$$ | O . O X . . . . . , . . O O X , . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . O . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . , 9 . . O O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . X . X X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I want to solidify bottom while leaving some way to go inside later. I end in bad shape when white plays atari, but I feel like the better local result if white plays tenuki is worth it.
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Celebrir
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Re: 154. illuck vs. Celebrir

Post by Celebrir »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 illluck vs. Celebrir - Prisoners: 0-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . O . . O . X . O . X . . X . . |
$$ | O . O X . . . . . , . . O O X , . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . O . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O 0 . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . , X . . O O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . X . X X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Again he denies to fight. However, I think I can satisfie with this because I get thickness where I had nothing while he only makes his already strong bottom stronger. Here are some continuations I thought about:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 illluck vs. Celebrir - Dia.1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . O . . O . X . O . X . . X . . |
$$ | O . O X . . . . . , . . O O X , . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . O . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O 1 3 . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O 2 4 . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . , X a . O O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . X . X X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Sadly the cut at 'a' doesn't work and I have to play the shown sequence, which looks really bad for me.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 illluck vs. Celebrir - Dia.2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . O . . O . X . O . X . . X . . |
$$ | O . O X . . . . . , . . O O X , . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . O . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 1 X O 2 . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . 3 X . . O O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . 4 X . X X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This looks better because I get a ponnuki but :b2: is in this sequence, too. I'm not sure about this but again, I think :b2: hurts to much. Of course, if he plays :b2: at :w3: I could play at :b2: myself, but I'm unsure whether he would allow it.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 illluck vs. Celebrir - Dia.3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . O . . O . X . O . X . . X . . |
$$ | O . O X . . . . . , . . O O X , . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . O . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . c . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O 3 . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . a X O 1 . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . b X . . O O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . X . X X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I guess I should play again with the proverb, that the good move of your opponent is your good move. This way he can peep at :b2: but I don't think that would hurt very much. Besides he still have the atari at 'a' and if he defends at 'b' 'c' looks good for me.
illluck
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Re: 154. illuck vs. Celebrir

Post by illluck »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 illluck vs. Celebrir - Prisoners: 0-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . O . . O . X . O . X . . X . . |
$$ | O . O X . . . . X , . . O O X , . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . O . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . , X . . O O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . X . X X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

That wedge potential has been bothering me for a while now, so I'll fix it.
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Celebrir
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Re: 154. illuck vs. Celebrir

Post by Celebrir »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 illluck vs. Celebrir - Prisoners: 0-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . O . . O . X . O . X . . X . . |
$$ | O . O X . . . . X , . . O O X , . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . 2 O . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . , X . . O O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . X . X X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Damn, seems like he sees my attack coming... I think I don't have to block here directly. I get a stronger position into the center but I don't think I have big weaknesses:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 illluck vs. Celebrir - Dia. 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . O 5 3 O . X . O . X . . X . . |
$$ | O . O X . 6 2 1 X , . . O O X , . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . O O . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . , X . . O O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . X . X X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 illluck vs. Celebrir - Dia.2a
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 8 . 9 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O 7 O 4 5 O . X . O . X . . X . . |
$$ | O . O X . 3 1 2 X , . . O O X , . . . |
$$ | . O X . . 0 O O . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . , X . . O O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . X . X X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 illluck vs. Celebrir - Dia.2b
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 2 X O . 4 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X O O X O . X . O . X . . X . . |
$$ | O . O X 1 X X O X , . . O O X , . . . |
$$ | . O X 3 . O O O . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . , X . . O O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . X . X X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 illluck vs. Celebrir - Dia.3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 4 3 . . 7 8 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . O . 6 O 5 X . O . X . . X . . |
$$ | O . O X . . 2 1 X , . . O O X , . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . O O . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , a . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . , X . . O O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . X . X X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The worst seems to be that he makes an eye. However, if I get sente here I would be happy to play 'a' (in Dia.3)
illluck
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Re: 154. illuck vs. Celebrir

Post by illluck »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 illluck vs. Celebrir - Prisoners: 0-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . O . . O . X . O . X . . X . . |
$$ | O . O X . . . . X , . . O O X , . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . O O . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . , X . . O O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . X . X X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I had anticipated a solid connect instead, this makes the area less interesting for me, at the cost of slightly worse edge endgame. Hard to say if it's better, but I do have to be more careful about my one-point jumps group. Nevertheless, I think it's hard to really attack (especially now I have more edge room), so I'll take this big yose instead.
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Re: 154. illuck vs. Celebrir

Post by Celebrir »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 illluck vs. Celebrir - Prisoners: 0-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . O . . O . X . O . X . . X . . |
$$ | O . O X . . . . X , . . O O X , . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . O O . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . 4 . . . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . , X . . O O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . X . X X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 illluck vs. Celebrir - Prisoners: 0-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . O . . O . X . O . X . . X . . |
$$ | O . O X . . . . X , . . O O X , . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . O O . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . c . . . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . d . . . . . . b . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . , X . . O O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . X . X X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I have to admit, that 'a' was a good spot for me which I missed, which I missed because I concentrated on the bottom. I don't know whether 'a' would be sente (didn't thought about it that much) but it would have been nice and at least I should have thought about it.
However, now it seems to small to play at 'b'. It would make his move even better because he gets sente. Instead I'll play at 'c', which should make much more points than 'b'. If he play at 'b' now, I'll play at 'd'. If he reduces my answer will depend on the move he uses.
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topazg
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Re: 154. illuck vs. Celebrir

Post by topazg »

@Celebrir:

Why did you play that :w64: when the previous move you'd been looking at:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 illluck vs. Celebrir - Prisoners: 0-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . O . . O . X . O . X . . X . . |
$$ | O . O X . . . . X , . . O O X , . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . O O . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , 4 C . . . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . , X . . O O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . X . X X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Celebrir
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Re: 154. illuck vs. Celebrir

Post by Celebrir »

topazg wrote:@Celebrir:

Why did you play that :w64: when the previous move you'd been looking at:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 illluck vs. Celebrir - Prisoners: 0-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . O . . O . X . O . X . . X . . |
$$ | O . O X . . . . X , . . O O X , . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . O O . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , 4 C . . . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . , X . . O O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . X . X X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Sorry, forgot that I mentioned this before. When I took a closer look I found a variation that I missed before and don't like:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 illluck vs. Celebrir - Variation
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . O . . O . X . O . X . . X . . |
$$ | O . O X . . . . X , . . O O X , . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . O O . X 0 9 . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . 8 7 O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X 6 5 . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . X 2 1 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , O . . . . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . , X . . O O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . X . X X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 illluck vs. Celebrir - Variation
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . O . . O . X 4 O 3 X . . X . . |
$$ | O . O X . . . . X , 2 1 O O X , . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . O O . X O X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . 6 O X O 5 . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . X O X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , O 7 . 9 . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 8 0 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . , X . . O O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . X . X X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 illluck vs. Celebrir - Variation
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . O . . O . X O O X X . . X . . |
$$ | O . O X . . . . X , O X O O X , . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . O O . X O X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . O O X O X . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . 3 . . . X O X . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . X O X . . 1 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , O X . X . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . , X . . O O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . X . X X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Both lose something here but I think my lose would be bigger. Besides B gets sente to play something like :b3:
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topazg
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Re: 154. illuck vs. Celebrir

Post by topazg »

@Celebrir

Yeah, that line was concerning me too, I did wonder if that had been the reason :)
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Re: 154. illuck vs. Celebrir

Post by Celebrir »

topazg wrote:@Celebrir

Yeah, that line was concerning me too, I did wonder if that had been the reason :)


First I missed that I have to play :w4: and wanted to play :w4: at :b5: :roll: Would be a typical mistake for me, but luckily I have more time in this game :)


EDIT: Something that just jumped to my mind:

What if I play like this ?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 illluck vs. Celebrir - Variation
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . O . . O . X O O X X . . X . . |
$$ | O . O X . . . . X , O X O O X , . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . O O . X O X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . O X O X . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 1 . . O X O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . X O X . . 6 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , O 2 . 4 . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 3 5 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . , X . . O O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . X . X X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: 154. illuck vs. Celebrir

Post by illluck »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 illluck vs. Celebrir - Prisoners: 0-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . O . . O . X . O . X . . X . . |
$$ | O . O X . . . . X , . . O O X , . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . O O . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 5 . . . . O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . O . . . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . , X . . O O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . X . X X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I want to strengthen the group to avoid being attacked (white has some splitting attack potential on that weak group and the left side group). I also want to strengthen the group in order for a deeper reduction of white's N8 area. A side benefit is that I may also get some points if white tries to expand the N8 area.
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Re: 154. illuck vs. Celebrir

Post by Magicwand »

topazg wrote:@Celebrir
Yeah, that line was concerning me too, I did wonder if that had been the reason :)
Topagz:
actually i like his previous move. That variation is good for white so no need to worry. And lasr peep is not sente so black will be losing big.
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"

Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
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