Redstone problem 1

Bill Spight · #1

Redstone is a form of no pass go. All captures are made with red stones, which are immortal. A player may capture stones of either player, or both. If your last stone remaining on the board has been captured, and it is your turn, you lose.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W White to play $$ --------------- $$ | . O O O . . . | $$ | O . X . O O O | $$ | O O O O O . . | $$ | . O X X X X X | $$ | . O O . X . . | $$ | X X X X X X X | $$ | . X . X X O . | $$ ---------------[/go]

Enjoy!

MarkSteere · #2

Looks like a good starting point for me. Thanks Bill.

topazg · #3

I'm missing something ...

Bill Spight · #4

topazg wrote:

I'm missing something ...

I am impressed.

Here is one thing you are missing.

topazg · #5

@Bill

topazg · #6

Hold on, you can suicide ....:

EDIT: Bingo??

Bill Spight · #7

topazg wrote:

@Bill

Bill Spight · #8

topazg wrote:

Hold on, you can suicide ....:

EDIT: Bingo??

"Suicide is painless" -- sometimes.

No bingo yet.

topazg · #9

EDIT: Ignore top sequence, will need redoing as I had a brainfart

Bill Spight · **#10**

topazg wrote:

EDIT: Ignore top sequence, will need redoing as I had a brainfart

Oh, you realized no single stone sacrifices are allowed?

topazg · **#11**

@Mark: Don't say I'm not giving this variant a fair chance

Bill Spight · **#12**

topazg wrote:

@Mark: Don't say I'm not giving this variant a fair chance

Edit: Added variation after the next note was posted.

topazg · **#13**

@Bill:

MarkSteere · **#14**

topazg wrote:

@Mark: Don't say I'm not giving this variant a fair chance

I totally appreciate the effort you're putting into this, Topazg. I fully expected Redstone to be ignored, but I'm glad it wasn't.

I'm watching the discussion with intense interest. This is a learning experience for me, and possibly a gateway to learning to play Go

Bill Spight · **#15**

topazg wrote:

@Bill:

I added a variation to #12.

topazg · **#16**

Bill, you're a real endgame guru, you scare me. Honestly, how easy is this stuff to you??

@Mark: Judging by how this sequence is progressing, I suspect there will be a strong correlation between Go strength and Redstone strength.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm1 White to play $$ --------------- $$ | . O O O 9 2 0 | $$ | O . X . O O O | $$ | O O O O O 5 6 | $$ | . O X X X X X | $$ | 1 O O 4 X 3 7 | $$ | X X X X X X X | $$ | . X . X X O 8 | $$ ---------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm11 White to play $$ --------------- $$ | . O O O O . C | $$ | O 2 X 1 O O O | $$ | O O O O O O X | $$ | . O X X X X X | $$ | O O O X X . C | $$ | X X X X X X X | $$ | . X . X X . C | $$ ---------------[/go]

And now I'm back to something like this, which loses for White again, or this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm1 White to play $$ --------------- $$ | . O O O 9 2 0 | $$ | O . X . O O O | $$ | O O O O O 6 8 | $$ | . O X X X X X | $$ | 1 O O 4 X 3 5 | $$ | X X X X X X X | $$ | . X . X X O 7 | $$ ---------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm11 White to play $$ --------------- $$ | . O O O 1 . C | $$ | O 3 X 2 O O O | $$ | O O O O O X X | $$ | . O X X X X X | $$ | O O O X X . C | $$ | X X X X X X X | $$ | . X . X X . C | $$ ---------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bm14 Black to play $$ --------------- $$ | . O O O O . C | $$ | O C 2 1 O O O | $$ | O O O O O X X | $$ | . O X X X X X | $$ | O O O X X 3 C | $$ | X X X X X X X | $$ | . X . X X . C | $$ ---------------[/go]

And now White wins. I'm amazing at playing to lose it seems

So...:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm1 White to play $$ --------------- $$ | . O O O . 2 . | $$ | O . X . O O O | $$ | O O O O O 7 8 | $$ | . O X X X X X | $$ | 1 O O 4 X 3 5 | $$ | X X X X X X X | $$ | . X . X X O 6 | $$ ---------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm9 White to play $$ --------------- $$ | 5 O O O 1 X 2 | $$ | O 4 X 3 O O O | $$ | O O O O O O X | $$ | 7 O X X X X X | $$ | O O O X X 6 C | $$ | X X X X X X X | $$ | . X . X X 8 C | $$ ---------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm17 White to play $$ --------------- $$ | O O O O O 1 C | $$ | O C 2 O O O O | $$ | O O O O O O X | $$ | O O X X X X X | $$ | O O O X X X C | $$ | X X X X X X X | $$ | . X . X X X C | $$ ---------------[/go]

See, I've done it again????

The key now seems to be to recognise there are an odd number of dame, to make sure you play one first instead of filling your own liberties. But, on the other hand, one of the key alternatives seems to be to fill your opponent's liberties, which always sounds like a better option. If you suicide two stones (by adding one to a single stone), you seem to buy yourself an extra move, unless your opponent responds by making the point unplayable. Unless....

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm1 White to play $$ --------------- $$ | . O O O 7 2 8 | $$ | O . X . O O O | $$ | O O O O O 5 6 | $$ | . O X X X X X | $$ | 1 O O 4 X 3 . | $$ | X X X X X X X | $$ | . X . X X O . | $$ ---------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm9 White to play $$ --------------- $$ | . O O O O . C | $$ | O 4 X 2 O O O | $$ | O O O O O O X | $$ | . O X X X X X | $$ | O O O X X O 1 | $$ | X X X X X X X | $$ | . X . X X O 3 | $$ ---------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm13 White to play $$ --------------- $$ | . O O O O . C | $$ | O C 1 . O O O | $$ | O O O O O O X | $$ | . O X X X X X | $$ | O O O X X 2 C | $$ | X X X X X X X | $$ | . X . X X . C | $$ ---------------[/go]

Playing in a two eye point to prevent your opponent getting a move in there too is winning, as it forces the opponent to play in their own space. Finally I get a variation where the person I'm trying to score a win for actually wins.

Is this even close to strongest play for both, or am I missing something fundamental yet again?

Bill Spight · **#17**

topazg, I hate to see you torture yourself. Your first move is wrong.

As for missing something fundamental, I suppose that if there were a book on Redstone, you might say that. But this is unfamiliar territory. I am more familiar, from working on no pass go and go infinitesimals. It took me a couple of hours to work out the eye values, to get the idea for the problem, and to work out the details. I could have done it a bit quicker, but I double checked myself at almost every step

Edit: Taking a break, could be for a some hours.

topazg · **#18**

No, the conclusion of learning is at its most satisfying when the journey is tortuous. It's got to the point where I'm not going to get beaten now

Why the first move is wrong:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm1 White to play $$ --------------- $$ | . O O O . 2 . | $$ | O . X . O O O | $$ | O O O O O 5 . | $$ | . O X X X X X | $$ | 1 O O 4 X 3 . | $$ | X X X X X X X | $$ | . X . X X O . | $$ ---------------[/go]

Of course, :w5:

here is wrong, as White's job is presumably to make sure Black takes the first dame when it's even, leaving White the last one. I'm tempted to say D'oh at myself, but that statement may be wrong, so I won't.

In which case:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm1 White to play $$ --------------- $$ | . O O O 5 2 . | $$ | O . X . O O O | $$ | O O O O O . . | $$ | . O X X X X X | $$ | 1 O O 4 X 3 . | $$ | X X X X X X X | $$ | . X . X X O . | $$ ---------------[/go]

Now there's an odd number of dame again, meaning Black has to take one, hoping that White takes another, giving himself the chance of taking the last one?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bm6 Black to play $$ --------------- $$ | . O O O O X . | $$ | O . X 2 O O O | $$ | O O O O O 1 3 | $$ | . O X X X X X | $$ | O O O X X O . | $$ | X X X X X X X | $$ | . X . X X O . | $$ ---------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm9 White to play $$ --------------- $$ | . O O O O X . | $$ | O . X O O O O | $$ | O O O O O X X | $$ | . O X X X X X | $$ | O O O X X O . | $$ | X X X X X X X | $$ | . X . X X O . | $$ ---------------[/go]

Except now Black has his wish. As there are 4 dame and it's White to play, meaning he gets to take 2 and 4, leaving White the first person to fill. As such, Black wins.

So, presumably White has to play to force Black to take the first dame when there's an even number remaining, so he can get the last one:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bm6 Black to play $$ --------------- $$ | . O O O O X 2 | $$ | O . X . O O O | $$ | O O O O O 1 3 | $$ | . O X X X X X | $$ | O O O X X O . | $$ | X X X X X X X | $$ | . X . X X O . | $$ ---------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm9 White to play $$ --------------- $$ | . O O O O . C | $$ | O 4 X 2 O O O | $$ | O O O O O X X | $$ | . O X X X X X | $$ | O O O X X O 1 | $$ | X X X X X X X | $$ | . X . X X O 3 | $$ ---------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm13 White to play $$ --------------- $$ | . O O O O . C | $$ | O C 1 . O O O | $$ | O O O O O X X | $$ | . O X X X X X | $$ | O O O X X . C | $$ | X X X X X X X | $$ | . X . X X . C | $$ ---------------[/go]

Now White wins, but as :w9:

and

are miai, Black can resist, by forcing White to take the last dame, creating one with a suicide:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm9 White to play $$ --------------- $$ | . O O O O . C | $$ | O 4 X 3 O O O | $$ | O O O O O X X | $$ | . O X X X X X | $$ | O O O X X O 1 | $$ | X X X X X X X | $$ | . X . X X O 2 | $$ ---------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm13 White to play $$ --------------- $$ | . O O O O . C | $$ | O C . O O O O | $$ | O O O O O X X | $$ | . O X X X X X | $$ | O O O X X . C | $$ | X X X X X X X | $$ | . X . X X . C | $$ ---------------[/go]

Again White loses. Which means I'm struggling to see how White can force Black to take the last dame.

Why, ironically, my original suspicion may have been right:

Bill Spight · **#19**

topazg wrote:

No, the conclusion of learning is at its most satisfying when the journey is tortuous. It's got to the point where I'm not going to get beaten now

Why the first move is wrong:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm1 White to play $$ --------------- $$ | . O O O . 2 . | $$ | O . X . O O O | $$ | O O O O O 5 . | $$ | . O X X X X X | $$ | 1 O O 4 X 3 . | $$ | X X X X X X X | $$ | . X . X X O . | $$ ---------------[/go]

Of course, :w5:

here is wrong, as White's job is presumably to make sure Black takes the first dame when it's even, leaving White the last one. I'm tempted to say D'oh at myself, but that statement may be wrong, so I won't.

In which case:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm1 White to play $$ --------------- $$ | . O O O 5 2 . | $$ | O . X . O O O | $$ | O O O O O . . | $$ | . O X X X X X | $$ | 1 O O 4 X 3 . | $$ | X X X X X X X | $$ | . X . X X O . | $$ ---------------[/go]

Now there's an odd number of dame again, meaning Black has to take one, hoping that White takes another, giving himself the chance of taking the last one?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bm6 Black to play $$ --------------- $$ | . O O O O X . | $$ | O . X 2 O O O | $$ | O O O O O 1 3 | $$ | . O X X X X X | $$ | O O O X X O . | $$ | X X X X X X X | $$ | . X . X X O . | $$ ---------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm9 White to play $$ --------------- $$ | . O O O O X . | $$ | O . X O O O O | $$ | O O O O O X X | $$ | . O X X X X X | $$ | O O O X X O . | $$ | X X X X X X X | $$ | . X . X X O . | $$ ---------------[/go]

Except now Black has his wish. As there are 4 dame and it's White to play, meaning he gets to take 2 and 4, leaving White the first person to fill. As such, Black wins.

So, presumably White has to play to force Black to take the first dame when there's an even number remaining, so he can get the last one:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bm6 Black to play $$ --------------- $$ | . O O O O X 2 | $$ | O . X . O O O | $$ | O O O O O 1 3 | $$ | . O X X X X X | $$ | O O O X X O . | $$ | X X X X X X X | $$ | . X . X X O . | $$ ---------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm9 White to play $$ --------------- $$ | . O O O O . C | $$ | O 4 X 2 O O O | $$ | O O O O O X X | $$ | . O X X X X X | $$ | O O O X X O 1 | $$ | X X X X X X X | $$ | . X . X X O 3 | $$ ---------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm13 White to play $$ --------------- $$ | . O O O O . C | $$ | O C 1 . O O O | $$ | O O O O O X X | $$ | . O X X X X X | $$ | O O O X X . C | $$ | X X X X X X X | $$ | . X . X X . C | $$ ---------------[/go]

Now White wins, but as :w9:

and

are miai, Black can resist, by forcing White to take the last dame, creating one with a suicide:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm9 White to play $$ --------------- $$ | . O O O O . C | $$ | O 4 X 3 O O O | $$ | O O O O O X X | $$ | . O X X X X X | $$ | O O O X X O 1 | $$ | X X X X X X X | $$ | . X . X X O 2 | $$ ---------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm13 White to play $$ --------------- $$ | . O O O O . C | $$ | O C . O O O O | $$ | O O O O O X X | $$ | . O X X X X X | $$ | O O O X X . C | $$ | X X X X X X X | $$ | . X . X X . C | $$ ---------------[/go]

Again White loses. Which means I'm struggling to see how White can force Black to take the last dame.

Why, ironically, my original suspicion may have been right:

Bingo!

Moves 1 and 2 each gain 1/2 point, but differ by a dame.

MarkSteere · **#20**

topazg wrote:

@Mark: Judging by how this sequence is progressing, I suspect there will be a strong correlation between Go strength and Redstone strength.

That would be the best possible outcome

Redstone problem 1

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