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Offline illluck
 Post subject: Re: Red, a Go variant
Post #41 Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 12:44 pm 
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[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ -------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O O O O |
$$ | . . X . . X X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X O 2 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------------[/go]


The issue is that once opponent captures there is almost no way to prevent a lot of eyes for the opponent since the surrounding stones will all be the opponent's?
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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: Red, a Go variant
Post #42 Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 1:08 pm 
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[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ -------------------------
$$ | . . . . . 7 5 6 . 8 . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O O O O |
$$ | . . X . . X X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X 9 . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X O 2 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . O 4 . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------------[/go]


Deviate anywhere you want to.
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Offline hyperpape
 Post subject: Re: Red, a Go variant
Post #43 Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 2:16 pm 
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I wouldn't have expected you to be such a libertine, Topazg.

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This post by hyperpape was liked by: topazg
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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: Red, a Go variant
Post #44 Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 2:38 pm 
Honinbo

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ -------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . 6 . 7 5 . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O O O O |
$$ | . . X . . X X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X O 2 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . O 4 . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------------[/go]


Doesn't this kill?

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Offline illluck
 Post subject: Re: Red, a Go variant
Post #45 Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:17 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ -------------------------
$$ | . . . . . X X O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O O O O |
$$ | . . X . . X X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X O O 0 . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------------[/go]


I guess either Topazg is taking pity on me or I confused him with the suicidal tenuki :p
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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: Red, a Go variant
Post #46 Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 6:27 pm 
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[go]$$Bcm31 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ -------------------------
$$ | . . . . . X X O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O O O O |
$$ | . . X . . X X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . O 4 3 1 . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . O 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------------[/go]


The latter, sadly :D
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Offline illluck
 Post subject: Re: Red, a Go variant
Post #47 Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 6:34 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ -------------------------
$$ | . . . . . X X O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O O O O |
$$ | . . X . . X X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . X . . |
$$ | . 7 X O O O . X . . . |
$$ | . 6 X . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . 8 O O . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------------[/go]


Yeah, that one's weird because the killing move is strictly worse in normal Go.
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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: Red, a Go variant
Post #48 Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 6:40 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ -------------------------
$$ | . . . . . X X O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O O O O |
$$ | . . X . . X X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X 9 . . X . . |
$$ | . 7 X O O O . X . . . |
$$ | . 6 X . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . 8 O O . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------------[/go]
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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: Red, a Go variant
Post #49 Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 6:45 pm 
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[go]$$Wcm40 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ -------------------------
$$ | . . . . . X X O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O O O O |
$$ | . . X . . X X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 2 4 . X X X 0 . X 8 . |
$$ | 1 X X O O O 9 X . . 6 |
$$ | 3 O X . . . O O X X 5 |
$$ | . O O O . . . . O O 7 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm50 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ -------------------------
$$ | . . . . . X X O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O O O O |
$$ | . . X . . X X X O X 5 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X X 6 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X X . X X . |
$$ | O X X O O O O X . . X |
$$ | O O X 1 . . O O X X O |
$$ | . O O O . . . 3 O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . 4 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------------[/go]


So, I'm winning on the board, and White has two groups - :b51: is because taking shape points seems important in this game. Is this enough?
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Offline illluck
 Post subject: Re: Red, a Go variant
Post #50 Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 7:59 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ -------------------------
$$ | . . . . . X X O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O O O O |
$$ | . . X . . X X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X . . X 0 . |
$$ | . 7 X O O O . X . . . |
$$ | . 6 X . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . 8 O O . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------------[/go]


I count myself behind by a few points. What's worse is that it will be easier for black to make multiple single eyes. So I guess I'll try to see if there's any funny business due to red stones.
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Offline wessanenoctupus
 Post subject: Re: Red, a Go variant
Post #51 Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:14 pm 
Dies with sente

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KGS: badukboris
hey guys, whats a pie rule? Also, I am going to comment on something Mark said in BGG here, Go is not innately a game of aggression. It can be a game of aggression, but in my humble opinion, playing go should be like properly doing Tai Ji, moving in such a way that if a butterfly lands on your arm, it should collapse (of course you could adjust your strength to the butterfly)...sorry If my metaphor sounds silly. And I will readily admit to not actually playing the way I just described.
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Offline illluck
 Post subject: Re: Red, a Go variant
Post #52 Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:00 pm 
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pie_rule

I also agree with other players (though I don't remember which posts they were or if they are even on L19) that move pie rule feels rather awkward for Go. A komi auction/pie rule on komi feels cleaner, but it'll probably settle around 6.5 anyways so I don't think it'll be that useful.

I do really like the pieboxing variant though (both players alternatively choose black moves until one side decides to take white and try to live).
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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: Red, a Go variant
Post #53 Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:46 am 
Tengen
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KGS: topazg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ -------------------------
$$ | . . . . . X X O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O O O O |
$$ | . . X . . X X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X . . X O . |
$$ | . X X O O O . X . 1 . |
$$ | . O X . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------------[/go]


Looks like he's worked it out, and is trying to pull it back. The problem is, red stones are a right pain in the posterior compared to normal go situations. Things where you'd normally have a squeeze going on no longer work:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ -------------------------
$$ | . . . . . X X O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O O O O |
$$ | . . X . . X X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X . . X 0 4 |
$$ | . X X O O O . X . 1 3 |
$$ | . O X . . . O O X X 2 |
$$ | . O O O . . . . O O 5 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 7 6 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ -------------------------
$$ | . . . . . X X O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O O O O |
$$ | . . X . . X X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X . . X O O |
$$ | . X X O O O . X . X X |
$$ | . O X . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . O O C |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------------[/go]


White can't recapture, because there's nothing to capture, which means I get free eye space eaty moves.

Will be interesting to see how the board develops, I actually strongly suspect he's squeezing the other side, but I'm struggling to read danger:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ -------------------------
$$ | . . . . . X X O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O O O O |
$$ | . . X . . X X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 0 6 7 . |
$$ | . . . X X X 2 4 X 0 9 |
$$ | . X X O O O 3 X 5 1 . |
$$ | . O X . . . O O X X 8 |
$$ | . O O O . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ -------------------------
$$ | . . . . . X X O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O O O O |
$$ | . . X . . X X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O C X . |
$$ | . . . X X X O O X . C |
$$ | . X X O O O X X X X . |
$$ | . O X 1 2 4 O O X X O |
$$ | . O O O 3 . . 5 O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------------[/go]
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Offline illluck
 Post subject: Re: Red, a Go variant
Post #54 Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 10:10 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ -------------------------
$$ | . . . . . X X O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O O O O |
$$ | . . X . . X X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X 2 . X O . |
$$ | . X X O O O . X . X . |
$$ | . O X . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------------[/go]

Are we hiding comments now? I think black's last move should be the descent, but not absolutely sure.
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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: Red, a Go variant
Post #55 Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 10:42 am 
Tengen
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ -------------------------
$$ | . . . . . X X O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O O O O |
$$ | . . X . . X X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X 2 4 X O . |
$$ | . X X O O O 3 X 5 X . |
$$ | . O X . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------------[/go]


Assuming you want to squeeze :)

This could be a very interesting shape ...
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Offline illluck
 Post subject: Re: Red, a Go variant
Post #56 Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 12:37 pm 
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Rank: OGS 2d
KGS: illluck
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ -------------------------
$$ | . . . . . X X O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O O O O |
$$ | . . X . . X X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 5 . . X X X 2 . X O . |
$$ | 4 X X O O O 3 X . X . |
$$ | 6 O X . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------------[/go]


I'll play on the left first.
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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: Red, a Go variant
Post #57 Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 1:04 pm 
Tengen
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Posts: 4511
Location: Chatteris, UK
Liked others: 1589
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Rank: Nebulous
GD Posts: 918
KGS: topazg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ -------------------------
$$ | . . . . . X X O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O O O O |
$$ | . . X . . X X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 5 7 . X X X 2 8 X O . |
$$ | 4 X X O O O 3 X 9 X . |
$$ | 6 O X . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------------[/go]


Ok, is this your continuation?
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Offline illluck
 Post subject: Re: Red, a Go variant
Post #58 Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 1:29 pm 
Lives in sente

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Rank: OGS 2d
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OGS: illluck
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ -------------------------
$$ | . . . . . X X O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O O O O |
$$ | . . X . . X X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O O X O . |
$$ | O X X O O O X X X X . |
$$ | O O X . . . O O X X 0 |
$$ | . O O O . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------------[/go]
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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: Red, a Go variant
Post #59 Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 1:57 pm 
Tengen
User avatar

Posts: 4511
Location: Chatteris, UK
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Rank: Nebulous
GD Posts: 918
KGS: topazg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ -------------------------
$$ | . . . . . X X O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O O O O |
$$ | . . X . . X X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O O X O 1 |
$$ | O X X O O O X X X X . |
$$ | O O X . . . O O X X O |
$$ | . O O O . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------------[/go]
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Offline illluck
 Post subject: Re: Red, a Go variant
Post #60 Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:24 pm 
Lives in sente

Posts: 1223
Liked others: 738
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Rank: OGS 2d
KGS: illluck
Tygem: Trickprey
OGS: illluck
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ -------------------------
$$ | . . . . . X X O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O O O O |
$$ | . . X . . X X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O O X O X |
$$ | O X X O O O X X X X . |
$$ | O O X 2 . . O O X X O |
$$ | . O O O . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------------[/go]


Now for the joys of no pass go. How does that even work anyways? XD
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