22. Araban (5d) vs. zinger (1d)

Post by **Solomon** » Thu Apr 22, 2010 9:24 am

Welcome everyone! This will be (I think) the first Malkovich game that starts from the very beginning on the new and rapidly growing Life in 19x19 forums. I look forward to an excellent game with zinger. Regarding our playing strengths, I am between 4d-5d on KGS (depending on which account

) and zinger is shodan. Due to the nature of Malkovich games, we decided on a reduced handicap of 2 stones. We also decided databases would be fair game, although he stated he wouldn't use it. I may, at most, use it sparingly if only for post-move analysis rather than making my move (no promise there though

).

Anyways, I wish my opponent zinger the best of luck!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , W . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Usually most people would say that the first move is not so important and thus would require little to no explanation. However, I think the first move is very important, if for different reasons than why other moves are considered important in Go. It lays the foundation not only for your stones, but for your mind as well. There is an interesting trivia that Yoda Norimoto once spent 20 minutes for his first move :lol:

!

Say, for instance, I were to begin the game by playing at the 5-4 point instead of the 3-4 point. In that case, I would already begin to think about ways of utilizing influence and thickness from the move because the 5-4 places more emphasis on influence than territory and is more center-oriented (http://senseis.xmp.net/?54Point).

However, I don't think the converse is necessarily true for me regarding the 3-4 point: I am placing a bit more regard to territory than influence by playing the 3-4, but my main reason for playing this move is mostly by its comfort level to me. The 5-4 is a perfectly viable move (especially in larger handicap games where a corner is still open - 3 basically), but it is not a move I am very comfortable with. I know less joseki for it, I'm more of a cash player than an investment player, and with 2 stones I think it's fine to get myself out of the mindset that it is a handicap game and just treat and approach the game as if it were even and try to catch up naturally. If Black takes the time to occupy the other corner (which is most likely), then it also allows me to play my favorite fuseki:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Of course, I am making the major assumption that Black will play 3. However, a pincer would be just fine for me because it allows for a few complications early in the game. Again, I emphasize that I am treating this game as if it were even, but at the same time I should also anticipate variations that are more complicated because it allows more opportunities.

Website · Post by **Chew Terr** » Thu Apr 22, 2010 9:30 am

Thanks for all the description, Araban. It makes the game MUCH easier to understand, and more entertaining.

Would you please explain

zinger · Post by **zinger** » Thu Apr 22, 2010 9:38 am

Welcome and good luck Araban!

Let's get started ..

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

KGS 4 kyu · Post by **fwiffo** » Thu Apr 22, 2010 9:40 am

Website · Post by **Chew Terr** » Thu Apr 22, 2010 9:43 am

Thanks Fwiffo, I always forget the names for things =( Araban, you can read Fwiffo's last comment, I think.

My expectation:

zinger · Post by **zinger** » Thu Apr 22, 2010 9:53 am

Damn, this has already got my curiosity up, what the heck are people saying? lol

Dusk Eagle · Post by **Dusk Eagle** » Thu Apr 22, 2010 1:39 pm

zinger: I know, eh? Especially when you're worried that they're discussing how wrong your last move was. From my own game I found that I just have to approach it with my normal confidence - like a baseball player at the plate, not focusing on what the fans thinks but simply playing my normal game. When I do that, I can enjoy getting people commenting on my moves rather than getting nervous about it.

Post by **Solomon** » Thu Apr 22, 2010 3:49 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . W . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Thu Apr 22, 2010 3:52 pm

zinger · Post by **zinger** » Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:19 pm

I'll offer a short sequence:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . 1 O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . 3 4 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I expect to still get sente to play in the empty corner, if white follows my offered line. But he might play this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . 1 O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In which case chaos erupts and I have no idea what will happen next. But that's what makes it fun. With the two hoshi stones I think a fight is OK for black.

Phelan · Post by **Phelan** » Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:37 pm

zinger wrote:
I expect to still get sente to play in the empty corner, if white follows my offered line. But he might play this:

In which case chaos erupts and I have no idea what will happen next. But that's what makes it fun. With the two hoshi stones I think a fight is OK for black.

For zinger:

zinger · Post by **zinger** » Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:44 pm

for phelan:

KGS 4 kyu · Post by **fwiffo** » Thu Apr 22, 2010 7:24 pm

For Araban:

KGS 4 kyu · Post by **fwiffo** » Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:59 pm

Post by **Solomon** » Fri Apr 23, 2010 7:57 am

zinger wrote:I'll offer a short sequence:

$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . 1 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . 3 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . 1 O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . 3 4 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I expect to still get sente to play in the empty corner, if white follows my offered line. But he might play this:

$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . 1 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . 1 O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In which case chaos erupts and I have no idea what will happen next. But that's what makes it fun. With the two hoshi stones I think a fight is OK for black.

So 1 is the move you want to play, with 2-4 as triggers, or is this just thoughts?

Life In 19x19

22. Araban (5d) vs. zinger (1d)

22. Araban (5d) vs. zinger (1d)

Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22