Redstone - Topazg vs. Dusk Eagle

Dusk Eagle · #1

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ ------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . . , . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -------------------------[/go]

My naive feeling is to be more biased toward the corners in this game.

Hidden from topazg until after he moves:

topazg · #2

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ ------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . . , . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . , 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -------------------------[/go]

Let's do this, have a great game

illluck · #3

*grabs popcorn*

Dusk Eagle · #4

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm3 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ ------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . , O . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -------------------------[/go]

Split the board up.

topazg · #5

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm3 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ ------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . 2 , . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . , O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -------------------------[/go]

Some vague effort at symmetry, because why not?

Dusk Eagle · #6

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ ------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . O , . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . , O . . | $$ | . . X . . . 1 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -------------------------[/go]

I actually looked in a joseki dictionary before playing this move. I deserve to be mocked in the comments.

Bill Spight · #7

BTW, about the pie rule. IMO, komi is better, and my somewhat educated guess is that proper komi for Redstone on the 9x9 and larger boards is around 3. To implement it, just allow White 3 passes.

MarkSteere · #8

Bill Spight wrote:

just allow White 3 passes.

I'm game.

Dusk Eagle · #9

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm7 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ ------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . O , . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , O . . , O . . | $$ | . . X X O X X . . . . | $$ | . . . O X O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . . . . | $$ -------------------------[/go]

Looking at this position more, I almost found a tesuji for white here.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ ------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . O , . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , O . . , O . . | $$ | . . X X O X X . . . . | $$ | . . . O X O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O X a 1 . . . . | $$ -------------------------[/go]

Black can't capture at 'a', because that allows white to connect.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ ------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . O , . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , O . . , O . . | $$ | . . X X O X X . . . . | $$ | . . . O X O X 3 . . . | $$ | . . . O X a O 2 . . . | $$ -------------------------[/go]

Black tries to stop white with :b12:

, but white continues with :w13:

. This whole position hinges on not being the one that is forced to play the red stone at 'a'. But with :w13:

, white is trying to force black's hand to play there. So is black doomed? I thought so at first, but then I saw:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ ------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . O , . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , O . . , O . . | $$ | . . X X O X X . . . . | $$ | . . 4 O B O X O . . . | $$ | . . . O X a O X . . . | $$ -------------------------[/go]

With

, black securely captures the two white stones and links up his groups. If white places a red stone at 'a', black cuts at :bc:

.

Quick edit: I think black should skip :b12:

and play

directly.

luigi · **#10**

Bill Spight wrote:

BTW, about the pie rule. IMO, komi is better, and my somewhat educated guess is that proper komi for Redstone on the 9x9 and larger boards is around 3. To implement it, just allow White 3 passes.

I don't have much experience with Redstone, but I suspect that would be too much. 3 passes for White would mean that he can afford to have 2 or 3 (depending on parity) eyes less than his opponent and still win. It seems that the number of eyes is roughly equivalent to the surrounded territory divided at least by 4, so 3 passes may be equivalent to an 8-12 komi, or even more, in Go.

topazg · **#11**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ ------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . O , . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 6 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . , O . . | $$ | . . X . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -------------------------[/go]

Ok, let's try the 3 passes thing. It certainly equates to 3 points in traditional Go scoring, which is equivalent to 3 komi, but whether it's equivalent in Redstone I've no idea. Bill's more likely to be the expert than me, and I must confess, I was kicking myself for not invoking the pie rule in this game, as I think moving first is likely to be a big advantage without a deliberately substandard move.

Dusk Eagle · **#12**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ ------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 7 . . X . . | $$ | . . O , . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . , O . . | $$ | . . X . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -------------------------[/go]

Bill Spight · **#13**

topazg wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ ------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . O , . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 6 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . , O . . | $$ | . . X . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -------------------------[/go]

Ok, let's try the 3 passes thing. It certainly equates to 3 points in traditional Go scoring, which is equivalent to 3 komi, but whether it's equivalent in Redstone I've no idea. Bill's more likely to be the expert than me, and I must confess, I was kicking myself for not invoking the pie rule in this game, as I think moving first is likely to be a big advantage without a deliberately substandard move.

I think that luigi is more expert than I.

And I do think that territory/4 is a reasonable estimate for eyes in the early endgame. However, such eyes are likely to produce more than one eventual eye. It may well be that proper komi is 1, but if so, I think that that would affect strategy (like preferring the second line). I would rather experiment with komi that is too high, as if that is right, it means a more go like strategy. Maybe 2 would be a good komi.

topazg · **#14**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ ------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 7 . . X . . | $$ | . . O , . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 8 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . , O . . | $$ | . . X . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -------------------------[/go]

You may be quite right, but the value of passing is surely biggest when it reaches the stage of filling your own eyespace later, and as a result, it feels like it will be more closely represented by territory at that stage. I could be wrong, as eyes <> points of territory, and frankly, this is all out of my expertise anyway

Dusk Eagle · **#15**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ ------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . X . . | $$ | . . O , . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . , O . . | $$ | . . X . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 9 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -------------------------[/go]

Let's pressure your group a bit.

topazg · **#16**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ ------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . X 0 . | $$ | . . O , . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . , O . . | $$ | . . X . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 9 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -------------------------[/go]

Let's defend it then

Dusk Eagle · **#17**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ ------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 1 . | $$ | . . . . . X . . X O . | $$ | . . O , . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . , O . . | $$ | . . X . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -------------------------[/go]

I guess that's allowed.

topazg · **#18**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ ------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 1 . | $$ | . . . . . X . . X O . | $$ | . . O , . . . , . 2 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . , O . . | $$ | . . X . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -------------------------[/go]

Dusk Eagle · **#19**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm13 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ ------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . | $$ | . . 1 . . X . . X O . | $$ | . . O , . . . , . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . , O . . | $$ | . . X . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -------------------------[/go]

topazg · **#20**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm13 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ ------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . | $$ | . . 1 2 . X . . X O . | $$ | . . O , . . . , . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . , O . . | $$ | . . X . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -------------------------[/go]

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Redstone - Topazg vs. Dusk Eagle

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