Go ç¢

Simba · Post by **Simba** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 2:08 am

Jsiegert wrote:I am ostensibly defensive in Go, preferring a secure foothold before making any aggressive advances. However, habitual play is to be avoided so I will make a point of avoiding moves such as R10 and N16 for a while, and see what comes of it.

It's really good to hear that you did think about why you play things like N16 before playing them, even if the reasoning is incorrect. Go is not about being right, it's about thinking. There are things I thought when I was a 5k that I had logic for, but now I look back and think "well, that logic was wrong because X, Y, Z." And inevitably now there are a lot of things at my current level that I will look back in a few ranks time and think "Oh, okay, but that logic was also wrong because of..." But the important thing is that we do have logic, even if it's wrong. That gives us a base to refine and learn from.

Let me help you

:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 7 5 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 9 0 6 4 3 1 . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . X . . X 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm11 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X O O 3 . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . B . . X X 1 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Look at the marked stone in this second diagram. It looks a bit silly, right? Black gets gote from this sequence. So imagine black had sente for a moment, and that the N16 stone was not on the board. Black would not waste his sente playing at N16, right? This kind of highlights why N16 is a bit of an odd move - it tends to end up out of place and provides very little added value as a result - it looks a silly in its final position in the above sequence.

Consider the below instead:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Much more secure. White cannot live in that corner by invading at the 3-3 (it's ko at best). So you notice that by asking for less, we actually got more. It's a fine line between a good move and an overplay. ^_^ Hope this helps!

Jsiegert · Post by **Jsiegert** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 10:31 pm

Had forgotten to post Firday's game:

Unfortunate that he resigned. Regardless not thrilled with how I played with this new approach. Future failures will find successes.

Thank you Simba. A clear demonstration. Actually the weakness in my previous openings have been exploited freuqently in much the way you've described. I had always ascribed it to poor play on my part to thwart the invasion once it started. Evidently I was partially correct. My erronous play did lead to a failure to thwart invasion, but not once it starts. I should have stopped it before it began with more secure openings.

EDIT: M15 was a notable waste of effort, or it should have been.

Celebrir · Post by **Celebrir** » Sun Feb 26, 2012 2:15 am

I think I would have tried it this way:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , X X X O 3 X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X 1 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . a . 2 . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If he defends at a you get a big corner, if he defends the corner you can strengthen your group with forcing moves and escape at a, which would lead into a fight which should be good for W

Simba · Post by **Simba** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:04 am

You're welcome

. As you move up you will see that a lot of players rely on overplaying to try to win - it's an approach I really am not fond of at all (I actually think it's quite arrogant in some instances when the overplay is blatant since basically it's as if your opponent is just saying "I know this is rubbish but I think you're a bit crap and can't punish me, so there."). The overplays become more and more difficult to counter and punish, but by doing so you'll become a stronger player. That's why I think it's important for you even from the start to realise what is and what is not overplay, so that you have realistic expectations from your stones and also can spot when your opponent is doing it

.

oren · Post by **oren** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:29 am

Or as you get stronger you find what you think is overplay at first is based on better reading than you have...

mitsun · Post by **mitsun** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 4:41 pm

Simba wrote:

$$Wcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . W X X X O O O . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . B . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . W X X X O O O . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . B . . X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Look at the marked stone in this second diagram. It looks a bit silly, right? Black gets gote from this sequence. So imagine black had sente for a moment, and that the N16 stone was not on the board. Black would not waste his sente playing at N16, right?

Well, if W promised to play the marked W stone, I think I would agree to play the marked B stone, and consider it a good exchange

Jsiegert · Post by **Jsiegert** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:57 pm

Today's game:

Did not go into this game with a "focused" mindset.

Some thoughts in retrospect:
G4 instead of C6 could have potentially stopped white from getting such a firm grip on the bottom.
Had a hard time deciding between B4 and B11. Personally I dont think either would have gained anything significant.
Move 23 was very impulsive for me. immediately afterward figured I should have pushed towards my stones right middle or even play a one space gap beneath him. The latter would have probably been the safest decision.

Still working through "Graded Go Problems" Vol. 3. It may wise to go back and review some more basic configurations in volume 2.

Also, my rank appears to have "jumped" to 15k despite my not having played ranked game for a few days. Inconsequential, but interesting.

mitsun · Post by **mitsun** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 6:46 pm

Jsiegert wrote:Some thoughts in retrospect:
G4 instead of C6 could have potentially stopped white from getting such a firm grip on the bottom.
Had a hard time deciding between B4 and B11. Personally I dont think either would have gained anything significant.
Move 23 was very impulsive for me. immediately afterward figured I should have pushed towards my stones right middle or even play a one space gap beneath him. The latter would have probably been the safest decision.

Some quick comments on your comments:

C6 is *much* better than G4. No need to be envious of your opponent's territory so early in the opening. Note that the W position (L3) is low, so W is not threatening to make a big moyo here.

B4 would have been better than B11, mostly because of the huge follow-up at C3. The only reason for not playing B4 is if B wants to preserve the option of invading at C3. This would be a viable strategy, once B has a stable group on the other side, say at move 19.

R12 is a very negative move, which you should banish from your repertoire. After W responds at R13, W is stronger than before, so W should say "thank you" for forcing this exchange. The continuation at R14 was even worse, helping W even more. Direct contact plays like these are generally not good for attacking.

The most positive move in this sort of position would be the loose cap at O13, aiming to make profit while attacking. If W then settles his stone by making exchanges like W-R11/B-R10 and W-R15/B-R16, B should be *very* happy. Do you agree? Try playing out some continuations where W just settles for eye-space along the right side, and practice thinking "this is a great result for B".

Instead of the capping attack, if B wants to keep things simple, just defending the corner with R16 or R15 (but not R14) would be good. This deprives W of space for making a base along the right side and would actually be a strong attack, much stronger than the contact plays in the game.

Jsiegert · Post by **Jsiegert** » Wed Feb 29, 2012 3:49 pm

Thank you Mitsun. Your explanations make ample sense.

Regarding yesterday and the rest of the week, higher prioty obligations preclude my opportunities to get in my daily game. Will resume on Monday ideally.

Simba · Post by **Simba** » Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:47 pm

Out of curiosity, how are you finding GGPfB vol. 2, assuming you're still studying that in accordance with your initial post

?

Life In 19x19

Go ç¢

Re: Go ç¢

Re: Go ç¢

Re: Go ç¢

Re: Go ç¢

Re: Go ç¢

Re: Go ç¢

Re: Go ç¢

Re: Go ç¢

Re: Go ç¢

Re: Go ç¢