Sygovitch - topazg vs Christian Freeling

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 9:49 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm20 38 | 37 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . 6 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 4 O O X 3 . . 2 O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . X O 4 6 . 2 O O 4 . . | $$ | . 3 X X . . . . X 1 3 5 . . . . 6 . . | $$ | . . . 1 5 . . . . . . . . 1 X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . 6 O O 2 4 . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . X 1 . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 6 4 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 4 5 3 . . . | $$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . X O . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . 1 . . 5 1 2 . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . 5 3 X , . 6 O 2 . , . 6 . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . O 2 4 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

christian freeling · Post by **christian freeling** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 10:19 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm26 38 | 45 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O X X 1 . O O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . X O O O . O O O O . . | $$ | . X X X . . . . X X X X 1 . . . O . . | $$ | . . . X X 1 . . . . . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O O O O O . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . X X 1 O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X O X X 1 . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . X O . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . 1 . X . . X X O . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . X X X , . O O O . , . O . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

[/quote]

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:17 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm26 39 | 45 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O X X 1 . O O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . X O O O . O O O O . . | $$ | . X X X . . . . X X X X 1 . . . O . . | $$ | . . . X X 1 . . . . . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O O O O O . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . X X 1 O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X O X X 1 2 . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . X O . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . 1 . X . . X X O . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . X X X , . O O O . , . O . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

christian freeling · Post by **christian freeling** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:34 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm26 39 | 53 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O X X 1 3 O O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . X O O O 3 O O O O . . | $$ | . X X X . . . . X X X X 1 . . . O . . | $$ | . . . X X 1 . . . . . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O O O O O . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 3 . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . X X 1 O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 3 O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X O X X 1 2 . | $$ | . . . O . . 3 . . . . . X O . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . 1 . X . 3 X X O . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . X X X , . O O O . , . O . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 12:16 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm26 48 | 53 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | 4 O O O X X 1 3 O O . 4 . 4 . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . X O O O 3 O O O O . . | $$ | . X X X . . . . X X X X 1 . . . O . . | $$ | . . . X X 1 . . . . . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O O O O O 4 . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 3 . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . X X 1 O 4 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 3 O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O 3 4 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X O X X 1 2 . | $$ | . . . O . . 3 . . . . . X O . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . 1 . X . 3 X X O . X . 4 . | $$ | . . . O . . X X X , 4 O O O . , . O . | $$ | . . . O 4 . . . . . . . . . . O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

christian freeling · Post by **christian freeling** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 12:28 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm30 48 | 54 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O O O O X X X X O O . O . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . X O O O X O O O O . . | $$ | . X X X . . . . X X X X X . . . O . . | $$ | . . . X X X . . . . . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . X X X O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . 1 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O X X X O . | $$ | . . . O . . X . . . . . X O . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . X . X . X X X O . X . O . | $$ | . . . O . . X X X , O O O O . , . O . | $$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 12:34 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm30 56 | 54 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . 2 O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O O O O X X X X O O . O 2 O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . X O O O X O O O O . . | $$ | . X X X . . . . X X X X X . . . O . . | $$ | . . . X X X . . . . . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O O O O O O 2 . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . X X X O O 2 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . 1 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X O 2 | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O X X X O . | $$ | . . . O . . X . . . . . X O . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . X . X . X X X O . X . O . | $$ | . . . O . . X X X 2 O O O O . , . O . | $$ | . . . O O 2 . . . . . . . . 2 O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

christian freeling · Post by **christian freeling** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 12:53 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm30 56 | 63 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . 2 O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O O O O X X X X O O . O 2 O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . X O O O X O O O O . . | $$ | . X X X . . . . X X X X X . . . O . . | $$ | . . . X X X . . . 3 . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X 3 . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O O O O O O 2 . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X 3 . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . 3 X X X O O 2 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . 1 3 | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X O 2 | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O X X X O . | $$ | . . . O . 3 X . . . 3 . X O . X 3 . . | $$ | . . . O . . X . X . X X X O . X . O . | $$ | . . . O . . X X X 2 O O O O . , . O . | $$ | . . . O O 2 . . . . . . . . 2 O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The battle, not the war ;-)

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 4:17 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm30 63 | 63 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . 2 O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | 4 . O X X . . 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O O O O X X X X O O . O 2 O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . X O O O X O O O O . . | $$ | . X X X . . . . X X X X X . . . O . . | $$ | . . . X X X . . . 3 . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X 3 . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O O O O O O 2 4 . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X 3 . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . 3 X X X O O 2 4 | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . X 3 | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X O 2 | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . X X O X X X O . | $$ | . . . O . 3 X . . . 3 . X O . X 3 4 . | $$ | . . . O . . X . X 4 X X X O . X . O . | $$ | . . . O . . X X X 2 O O O O . , . O . | $$ | . . . O O 2 . . . . . . . . 2 O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Amen to that

christian freeling · Post by **christian freeling** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 1:31 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm34 56 | 78 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . O O X . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O . O X X . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O O O O X X X X O O . O O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . X O O O X O O O O . . | $$ | . X X X . . . . X X X X X . . . O . . | $$ | . . . X X X . . . X . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X X 1 . 1 . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O O O O O O O O . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X 1 | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , 1 X X X X B B B B | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X B 1 X X | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X B B X O O | $$ | . . . O . 1 . . . . . X X O X X X O . | $$ | . . . O . X X . . 1 X . X O . X X O . | $$ | . . . O . . X . X O X X X O . X . O . | $$ | . . . O . . X X X O O O O O . . . O . | $$ | . . . O O O . . . . . . . . O O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

topazg wrote:Amen to that

Note,

at R9 was the final placement (to allow groups connected to the 'new group to be' to grow first).

Tactically I won this local battle, but at the cost off seeing the white group top-left come to life, and intimidating white regions elsewhere. So in terms of strategy black may not have done all that well.

Also, I was forced to make the capture (usually in Sygo, you'd rather not capture but keep a group in limbo, to allow the enclosing groups to grow). Now, with six groups, I'm rather low on growing options.

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:06 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm34 62 | 78 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . O O X . . . 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O . O X X . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O O O O X X X X O O . O O O . . . . . | $$ | 2 . . X . . . . X O O O X O O O O . . | $$ | . X X X . . . . X X X X X . . . O . . | $$ | . . . X X X . . . X . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X X 1 . 1 . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O O O O O O O O 2 . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X 1 | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , 1 X X X X B B B B | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X B 1 X X | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X B B X O O | $$ | . . . O 2 1 . . . . . X X O X X X O . | $$ | . . . O . X X . . 1 X . X O . X X O . | $$ | . . . O . . X . X O X X X O . X 2 O . | $$ | . . . O . . X X X O O O O O . . . O . | $$ | . . . O O O . . . 2 . . . . O O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

christian freeling · Post by **christian freeling** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:25 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm36 62 | 78 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . O O X . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O . O X X . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O O O O X X X X O O . O O O . . . . . | $$ | O . . X . . 1 . X O O O X O O O O . . | $$ | 1 X X X . . . . X X X X X . . . O . . | $$ | . . . X X X . . . X . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X X X . X 1 . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O O O O O O O O O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . X X X X | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , X X X X X X X X X | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X X X | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X O O | $$ | . . . O O X . . . 1 . X X O X X X O . | $$ | . . . O . X X . . X X . X O . X X O . | $$ | . . . O . . X . X O X X X O . X O O . | $$ | . . . O . . X X X O O O O O . . . O . | $$ | . . . O O O 1 . . O . . . . O O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:34 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm36 68 | 84 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . O O X . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O . O X X . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O O O O X X X X O O . O O O . . . . . | $$ | O 2 . X . . 1 . X O O O X O O O O . . | $$ | 1 X X X . . . . X X X X X . . . O . . | $$ | . . . X X X . . . X . . . X X X 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . X X X . X 1 . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O O O O O O O O O 2 . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . X X X X | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , X X X X X X X X X | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X X X | $$ | . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . X X X X O O | $$ | . . . O O X . . . 1 . X X O X X X O . | $$ | . . . O . X X . . X X . X O . X X O . | $$ | . . . O . . X . X O X X X O . X O O . | $$ | . . . O . . X X X O O O O O . 2 . O . | $$ | . . . O O O 1 . 2 O . . . . O O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think there's a lot of interesting strategy in this one. It's pleasantly unclear what immediate implications there will be whenever you place single stones, particularly in the opening. It feels like a single stone played half way through can be good _only if your opponent will have to play a single stone in response at some point._

christian freeling · Post by **christian freeling** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:04 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm36 68 | 90 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . O O X . . 3 X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O . O X X . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O O O O X X X X O O . O O O . . . . . | $$ | O 2 . X . . 1 . X O O O X O O O O . . | $$ | 1 X X X . . . . X X X X X . . . O . . | $$ | 3 . . X X X . . . X . 3 . X X X 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . X X X . X 1 . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O O O O O O O O O 2 3 . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . X X X X | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , X X X X X X X X X | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X X X | $$ | . . . . 2 3 . . . 3 . . . X X X X O O | $$ | . . . O O X . . . 1 . X X O X X X O . | $$ | . . . O . X X . . X X . X O . X X O . | $$ | . . . O . . X . X O X X X O . X O O . | $$ | . . . O . . X X X O O O O O . 2 . O . | $$ | . . . O O O 1 . 2 O . . . . O O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

topazg wrote:I think there's a lot of interesting strategy in this one. It's pleasantly unclear what immediate implications there will be whenever you place single stones, particularly in the opening.

Yes, if the opponent starts growing, more often than not one will have to follow suit. If in that case the distribution of one's stones is unbalanced, the opponent may carve out big pieces of the pie. One must either use that or face that

topazg wrote:It feels like a single stone played half way through can be good _only if your opponent will have to play a single stone in response at some point._

'Only' may be a bit strong, but most of the time yes. But a single is also a source for additional growth, and if it can manage the quest for life it starts paying of a few moves later.

As in Go, there's quite often a difference between the 'general' and the 'specific'.

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:24 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm36 74 | 90 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . O O X . . 3 X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O . O X X . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O O O O X X X X O O . O O O . . . . . | $$ | O 2 4 X . . 1 . X O O O X O O O O . . | $$ | 1 X X X . . . . X X X X X . . . O . . | $$ | 3 . . X X X . . . X . 3 . X X X 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . X X X . X 1 . . . . X 4 . . | $$ | . O O O O O O O O O 2 3 . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 4 . 1 . . . X X X X | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , X X X X X X X X X | $$ | . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . X X X X X X | $$ | . . . . 2 3 . . . 3 . . . X X X X O O | $$ | . . . O O X . . . 1 . X X O X X X O . | $$ | . . . O . X X . . X X . X O . X X O . | $$ | . . . O . . X . X O X X X O . X O O . | $$ | . . . O . . X X X O O O O O . 2 . O . | $$ | . . . O O O 1 4 2 O . . . . O O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

christian freeling wrote:Yes, if the opponent starts growing, more often than not one will have to fowwow suit. If in that case the distribution of one's stones is unbalanced, the opponent may carve out big pieces of the pie. One must either use that or face that

I think that's where the strategy becomes interesting. Evaluating the difference between following suit or expanding is complex, particularly as the territory potential of groups is variable, so even though you may have more groups and thus more stones to place per turn, that doesn't necessarily correlate to the expected total net points of (group * moves) due to the limit of expansion that each group has.

christian freeling wrote:
topazg wrote:It feels like a single stone played half way through can be good _only if your opponent will have to play a single stone in response at some point._

'Only' may be a bit strong, but most of the time yes. But a single is also a source for additional growth, and if it can manage the quest for life it starts paying of a few moves later.

As in Go, there's quite often a difference between the 'general' and the 'specific'.

A single stone is only really a source for additional growth if it isn't fundamentally doomed. For example, I would have considered the second line contact play against your group at the right hand side a bad move if you could kill my group without having to spend a turn making a single stone move. As it was, I figured I could get some points back, and effectively maintain sente without losing momentum on multi-stone moves. The fact you then required a set number of multi-moves to kill it guaranteed the life in the top left corner as well, which was something I had been struggling on how to achieve without having to use a single-stone move.

The quest for life is actually remarkably hard for an invading stone. Not least because your opponent can make go-nonsense moves to kill it (such as contact playing a 3rd line stone on the 2nd line). Because the typical moves consist of extensions, it's remarkably hard to place killing moves without losing the momentum of multiple stones, and as your opponent has other groups around if its an invasion, that means you end up making less stones for your group per move than your opponent gets towards killing it and removing eyespace. All of which increases the importance of well placed early stones.

I think strategically I'm still a fledgeling at this game, but the progress so far is intuitively strengthening my opinion that territorially placed early stones are more valuable than influential ones. The nature of the extension game makes it even harder to quickly mark out central territory than it is in Go I think.

Life In 19x19

Sygovitch - topazg vs Christian Freeling

Re: Sygovitch - topazg vs Christian Freeling

Re: Sygovitch - topazg vs Christian Freeling

Re: Sygovitch - topazg vs Christian Freeling

Re: Sygovitch - topazg vs Christian Freeling

Re: Sygovitch - topazg vs Christian Freeling

Re: Sygovitch - topazg vs Christian Freeling

Re: Sygovitch - topazg vs Christian Freeling

Re: Sygovitch - topazg vs Christian Freeling

Re: Sygovitch - topazg vs Christian Freeling

Re: Sygovitch - topazg vs Christian Freeling

Re: Sygovitch - topazg vs Christian Freeling

Re: Sygovitch - topazg vs Christian Freeling

Re: Sygovitch - topazg vs Christian Freeling

Re: Sygovitch - topazg vs Christian Freeling

Re: Sygovitch - topazg vs Christian Freeling