Is there a way to become good without playing?

Ryuukun · Post by **Ryuukun** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:19 pm

Hi guys, unique question here.
I love go, I love it so much, I'm actually dreaming of it every damn night.
Whenever I watch proffesional go games I'm stunned by how beautiful the board looks and how well they play. It's something I could watch the whole day.
But I don't want to play it myself, I'm disgusted by my own bad play and how every game becomes a messy full scale battle without any tactic involved. (just block and attack and block and attack)

So I wondered if it's possible to become a decent enough player to be a challange to players that can actually play a beautiful game with me, without playing the game until then.
Basically I wonder how far solving problems and learning from pro matches can bring you and if there are other ways to learn even more about go.

I'm very obsessed with the beauty of higher level go.
Yes, I know I'm weird.

hyperpape · Post by **hyperpape** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:26 pm

Well, if you can arrange to get yourself possessed by the ghost of a Honinbo, yes.

Beyond that, some players have gone far with a lot of study and minimal play. But usually they're experienced with chess or some other game, and they do still play some.

oren · Post by **oren** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:29 pm

jts · Post by **jts** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:29 pm

Nope.

Sakata Eio actually wrote a mini-essay about this, on the absurdity of trying to "become strong in secret, while no one's watching."

You might be able to get up to 12k or so just by doing life and death problems. I'm not sure. I would be surprised if memorizing professional games meant much if you're truly a beginner. (Of course, I'm taking your word for it. Perhaps you are being very modest.)

Keep playing! Go is both fun and beautiful. And the more fun you have playing, the more you'll understand the beauty of high-level play.

Oh, and welcome to L19.

Ryuukun · Post by **Ryuukun** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:36 pm

jts wrote:Nope.

Sakata Eio actually wrote a mini-essay about this, on the absurdity of trying to "become strong in secret, while no one's watching."

You might be able to get up to 12k or so just by doing life and death problems. I'm not sure. I would be surprised if memorizing professional games meant much if you're truly a beginner. (Of course, I'm taking your word for it. Perhaps you are being very modest.)

Keep playing! Go is both fun and beautiful. And the more fun you have playing, the more you'll understand the beauty of high-level play.

Oh, and welcome to L19.

I find it extremely hard to do this. I just can not bring myself to play anymore when I see the game becomming a clusterfuck.
Not matter if I'm winning or losing I usually resign by then.
I guess I'm very bad but I can't know for sure what my actual rank would be since I barely finished playing any games yet.

uPWarrior · Post by **uPWarrior** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:38 pm

Maybe you should try to understand the reason your games are ugly?

(Doing so without playing is beyond my understanding)

Ryuukun · Post by **Ryuukun** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:48 pm

jts wrote:Nope.

Sakata Eio actually wrote a mini-essay about this, on the absurdity of trying to "become strong in secret, while no one's watching."

You might be able to get up to 12k or so just by doing life and death problems. I'm not sure. I would be surprised if memorizing professional games meant much if you're truly a beginner. (Of course, I'm taking your word for it. Perhaps you are being very modest.)

Keep playing! Go is both fun and beautiful. And the more fun you have playing, the more you'll understand the beauty of high-level play.

Oh, and welcome to L19.

I can not find that essay, is there an english version available for it somewhere?

jts · Post by **jts** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 4:00 pm

Ryuukun wrote:I find it extremely hard to do this. I just can not bring myself to play anymore when I see the game becomming a clusterbumble.
Not matter if I'm winning or losing I usually resign by then.
I guess I'm very bad but I can't know for sure what my actual rank would be since I barely finished playing any games yet.

When an aspiring artist is learning to draw, he doesn't crumple up a sheet of paper the second he feels that a line is off. No, he troops on and finishes the complete drawing. And when that first composition is complete, he pulls the next sheet and starts drawing again - sometimes, drawing the exact same subject a second time. Every single mistake is a learning experience, and he wants to learn as much as possible from each sheet of paper he uses.

A game of go is like that. When you make a mistake in one corner, you should be overjoyed! You've learned something, and now you have three more corners to make mistakes in before the game is over. In fact, go is even more forgiving than most other skills; in a game between two beginners, one expects each player to make at least a dozen or two dozen very serious, game-changing mistakes. So if you resign after the first game-changing mistake, you're missing 96% of the game, and you really should have no idea who will win or lose.

Ryuukun · Post by **Ryuukun** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 4:09 pm

jts wrote:
Ryuukun wrote:I find it extremely hard to do this. I just can not bring myself to play anymore when I see the game becomming a clusterbumble.
Not matter if I'm winning or losing I usually resign by then.
I guess I'm very bad but I can't know for sure what my actual rank would be since I barely finished playing any games yet.

When an aspiring artist is learning to draw, he doesn't crumple up a sheet of paper the second he feels that a line is off. No, he troops on and finishes the complete drawing. And when that first composition is complete, he pulls the next sheet and starts drawing again - sometimes, drawing the exact same subject a second time. Every single mistake is a learning experience, and he wants to learn as much as possible from each sheet of paper he uses.

A game of go is like that. When you make a mistake in one corner, you should be overjoyed! You've learned something, and now you have three more corners to make mistakes in before the game is over. In fact, go is even more forgiving than most other skills; in a game between two beginners, one expects each player to make at least a dozen or two dozen very serious, game-changing mistakes. So if you resign after the first game-changing mistake, you're missing 96% of the game, and you really should have no idea who will win or lose.

You're right, I expect to much from me even at my first try. I'm like that sadly, it's a part of my personality which I hate a lot but I can not get rid of it no matter what I try. Sadly I see myself rather quitting then trying that's why I asked if there was a way. Since there is not, it can't be helped. Thanks for the quick answers though.

Magicwand · Post by **Magicwand** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:19 pm

i will give you hope..

i know a persone reached 3 dan only by reviewing professional games.
i believe you can reach upto 5 dan without playing.

Mike Novack · Post by **Mike Novack** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:39 pm

jts wrote:Nope.

You might be able to get up to 12k or so just by doing life and death problems. I'm not sure.

Possibly even a bit (not much) stronger than that and I am sure because I was stronger than that before had anybody* to play against (not even the computer). But ........

a) No, not just life and death problems. Have to actually look at commented games and have digested some "theory" books.

b) Very few of us can learn this way.

c) I don't think it will help you learn to cope with overplays (my experience). Lacking rouhg and tumble experience you will probably be overly solid (too slow) as that's judgement in the face of the opponents response and you need games under your belt to get that.

* There were one or two games against people who said they knew how to play but I was already too strong for them

uPWarrior · Post by **uPWarrior** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:53 pm

Theoretically, you could solve life and death problems specifically about punishing overplays. I don't see many of these though..

hermitek · Post by **hermitek** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:45 am

Battousai mentioned that his friend didn't play for some time and then jumped by about 10 ranks to dan ranks by memorizing and reviewing professional games. Maybe it's the same person as Magicwand metioned? And Bat himself got from around 10k to 1d by memorizing pro games only. But he doesn't recommend doing it (since he started hating go or something).

RBerenguel · Post by **RBerenguel** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 3:07 am

I don't think you will get very far with it, but memorise pro games, watch high dan games in KGS (or Tygem, or WBaduk). Follow the latest pro games in Igokisen. Read Shape Up! And do millions of problems.

gowan · Post by **gowan** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 6:33 am

You aren't going to be able to do it unless you can take a detached attitude about playing since no matter how much you learn through study alone you'll still be likely to panic when it comes time to actually play a stone. After all, you might mess up the game at any point. Memorizing pro games and studying tsumego won't help much when your opponent deviates from what you've seen in pro games. You need to know why the pros made their moves, not just what they played.

On the other hand, most amateurs are really weak players so it shouldn't be all that hard to get to amateur dan level. I would guess that if you read and really understood just a couple of books, e.g. Haruyama and Nagahara's Basic Techniques of Go and Nagahara's Strategic Concepts of Go, you would be an amateur dan-level player. Of course it's the deep understanding that's hard to do.

P.S. Even if you make it to amateur dan level you'll still be playing inelegant games that are riddled with errors ;-)

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