How to study shape?

If you're new to the game and have questions, post them here.
Post Reply
Boidhre
Oza
Posts: 2356
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:15 pm
GD Posts: 0
Universal go server handle: Boidhre
Location: Ireland
Has thanked: 661 times
Been thanked: 442 times

How to study shape?

Post by Boidhre »

Another possibly inane/unsuitable for my level question! :)

I've come up with two ideas: Studying joseki and watching the games of stronger players. Any other ways out there? Are there any good tsumego sets for teaching this? I realise this is a huge and extremely complex topic and I'm really only concerned with the fundamentals but I haven't seen much directly addressing this aspect of learning in the game and honestly I'm fascinated by the concepts of efficiency and shape in go.
User avatar
lindentree
Dies with sente
Posts: 119
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 8:12 pm
Rank: AGA 3 dan
GD Posts: 0
KGS: lindentree
Tygem: selendis
IGS: lchiu87
Wbaduk: lindentree
Location: California
Has thanked: 33 times
Been thanked: 13 times
Contact:

Re: How to study shape?

Post by lindentree »

There's the book Making Good Shape...beyond that, I don't really know. I think it's a perfectly suitable question for most levels though.
User avatar
otenki
Lives in gote
Posts: 415
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2012 9:41 am
Rank: EGF 2k
GD Posts: 0
Universal go server handle: tygempanda
Location: Antwerp, Belgium
Has thanked: 43 times
Been thanked: 32 times

Re: How to study shape?

Post by otenki »

You can read Shape Up by Charles Matthews.
It is a series of articles about shape, I found it intresting.

You can find the pdf here:

[Mod edit: The link to the pdf "Shape Up!" has been deleted as it is not an authorized copy as explained by the author later on in this thread. Please look for the sources mentioned by the author of this book if you are interested in this book.]

Note to the admins: I think he made it open to the public, if not i'll remove the link.

Hope that helps;

Otenki
Bill Spight
Honinbo
Posts: 10905
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:24 pm
Has thanked: 3651 times
Been thanked: 3373 times

Re: How to study shape?

Post by Bill Spight »

Boidhre wrote:Another possibly inane/unsuitable for my level question! :)

I've come up with two ideas: Studying joseki and watching the games of stronger players. Any other ways out there? Are there any good tsumego sets for teaching this? I realise this is a huge and extremely complex topic and I'm really only concerned with the fundamentals but I haven't seen much directly addressing this aspect of learning in the game and honestly I'm fascinated by the concepts of efficiency and shape in go.


Let me stick my neck out and define shape.

1) The local relationship between stones of the same color.
2) Good shape. An efficient local relationship between stones of the same color, typically in the presence of opposing stones.

Usually when players talk about shape without qualifying the term, they mean 2).

There is an amateur misconception that shape is static. In the second sense, it certainly is not. It is forward looking.

Shape is not an extremely complex topic. I would not even consider it to be complex. Forcing your opponent into bad shape may take tactical skill, of course. :) But shape is on the whole easier than tsumego or tesuji. Good shape is often a prophylactic against the opponent's tesuji, and it sometimes involves tesuji to make it work. But on the whole it is easier.

When I was an SDK I bought a book on shape, which was an eye-opener, but now I do not have a book that even has shape in its title. I was fond of that book, but lost it along the way. Your instincts are right that you can learn shape from studying joseki and professional games. It helps to have some guidance, though, to understand the aspect of efficiency. All too often players will observe that a certain configuration of stones of the same color occurs in joseki or pro games, and jump to the conclusion that that configuration is good shape. They ignore the context, and do not understand why that configuration is efficient. In a different context it could be bad shape.

Examples later. :)
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
User avatar
emeraldemon
Gosei
Posts: 1744
Joined: Sun May 02, 2010 1:33 pm
GD Posts: 0
KGS: greendemon
Tygem: greendemon
DGS: smaragdaemon
OGS: emeraldemon
Has thanked: 697 times
Been thanked: 287 times

Re: How to study shape?

Post by emeraldemon »

I second watching games of stronger players. You also might try replaying some professional games.
Bill Spight
Honinbo
Posts: 10905
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:24 pm
Has thanked: 3651 times
Been thanked: 3373 times

Re: How to study shape?

Post by Bill Spight »

Shape example from joseki



See? Not so difficult. :)
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
Bill Spight
Honinbo
Posts: 10905
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:24 pm
Has thanked: 3651 times
Been thanked: 3373 times

Re: How to study shape?

Post by Bill Spight »

emeraldemon wrote:I second watching games of stronger players. You also might try replaying some professional games.


Strong amateurs often make bad shape. That's true even for Asian players. Good fighting skills can make up for bad shape. Within limits, of course.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
Boidhre
Oza
Posts: 2356
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:15 pm
GD Posts: 0
Universal go server handle: Boidhre
Location: Ireland
Has thanked: 661 times
Been thanked: 442 times

Re: How to study shape?

Post by Boidhre »

Bill Spight wrote:
emeraldemon wrote:I second watching games of stronger players. You also might try replaying some professional games.


Strong amateurs often make bad shape. That's true even for Asian players. Good fighting skills can make up for bad shape. Within limits, of course.


So it's a case of needing to study professional games? The issue being is that they won't make a whole lot of sense and one won't necessarily grasp the context which made the shape good if one is too weak. :)
User avatar
tchan001
Gosei
Posts: 1582
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:44 pm
GD Posts: 1292
Location: Hong Kong
Has thanked: 54 times
Been thanked: 534 times
Contact:

Re: How to study shape?

Post by tchan001 »

Also look for info on haengma
Perhaps start here: http://senseis.xmp.net/?HaengMaTutorialForBeginners
http://tchan001.wordpress.com
A blog on Asian go books, go sightings, and interesting tidbits
Go is such a beautiful game.
Bill Spight
Honinbo
Posts: 10905
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:24 pm
Has thanked: 3651 times
Been thanked: 3373 times

Re: How to study shape?

Post by Bill Spight »

Shape example from pro play.



How White induces Black's bad shape may not be obvious, but once Black makes it, it is painfully obvious. ;)
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
Bill Spight
Honinbo
Posts: 10905
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:24 pm
Has thanked: 3651 times
Been thanked: 3373 times

Re: How to study shape?

Post by Bill Spight »

Boidhre wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
emeraldemon wrote:I second watching games of stronger players. You also might try replaying some professional games.


Strong amateurs often make bad shape. That's true even for Asian players. Good fighting skills can make up for bad shape. Within limits, of course.


So it's a case of needing to study professional games? The issue being is that they won't make a whole lot of sense and one won't necessarily grasp the context which made the shape good if one is too weak. :)


Pros make good shape. It is so obvious to them that they do not usually comment on it. What you need to do is to go slowly and question ordinary moves. Why is that the right spot, and not a nearby point? The joseki example shows how to do that. You could have come to the same conclusions that I did. With my experience it was obvious. You would have to work at it. :)
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
Boidhre
Oza
Posts: 2356
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:15 pm
GD Posts: 0
Universal go server handle: Boidhre
Location: Ireland
Has thanked: 661 times
Been thanked: 442 times

Re: How to study shape?

Post by Boidhre »

Bill Spight wrote:Pros make good shape. It is so obvious to them that they do not usually comment on it. What you need to do is to go slowly and question ordinary moves. Why is that the right spot, and not a nearby point? The joseki example shows how to do that. You could have come to the same conclusions that I did. With my experience it was obvious. You would have to work at it. :)


Time to get a goban out then so. :)
User avatar
jts
Oza
Posts: 2662
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2010 4:17 pm
Rank: kgs 6k
GD Posts: 0
Has thanked: 310 times
Been thanked: 632 times

Re: How to study shape?

Post by jts »

If I may offer my two cents... I think the most natural way to develop some feel for shape is to study tesuji, since many tesuji exploit a vital shape point or, vice versa, many strong shapes prevent tesuji.

Also, if you notice a certain move in a pro or high Dan game and think "that looks so dumb", and then you see it again and again, you should ask someone to explain it... In my limited experience, however bad amateur Dan shape is, if I think it looks clearly dubious, then there's a rationale.

Also, shape that is a shape is not the true shape. There are shapes for attacking, shapes for defending, shapes for eyes space, shapes for connecting, shapes for development... Shape can be deceptive because a certain configuration of stones can be the most efficient for one particular purpose, while being useless for a different purpose.
Uberdude
Judan
Posts: 6727
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:35 am
Rank: UK 4 dan
GD Posts: 0
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
Location: Cambridge, UK
Has thanked: 436 times
Been thanked: 3718 times

Re: How to study shape?

Post by Uberdude »

dsaun does a nice audio lecture about shape on KGS every so often.
Boidhre
Oza
Posts: 2356
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:15 pm
GD Posts: 0
Universal go server handle: Boidhre
Location: Ireland
Has thanked: 661 times
Been thanked: 442 times

Re: How to study shape?

Post by Boidhre »

Thanks everyone for their comments.

Bill Spight wrote:When I was an SDK I bought a book on shape, which was an eye-opener, but now I do not have a book that even has shape in its title. I was fond of that book, but lost it along the way.


It wasn't "Tesuji and Anti-Suji of Go: Playing in Good Form and Making Correct Shape" was it? Because that was out of print but was recently released on SmartGo Books and looks interesting.
Post Reply