Considering the Go population in America and Europe, I would accept a weaker pro if only he does contribute his career to Go, even he gets slaughtered in the first round of any pro competition.

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长考出臭棋.

I think the only noticeable effect, currently, of declaring the strongest US players to be professionals, would be that they would lose their eligibility to ever play in the WAGC, KPMC, and similar amateur only events.

GoR works better than that pro system.

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长考出臭棋.

This is an important point. One way for American go to get noticed would be for a home-grown player to win the WAGC. Such a player would be professional strength btw.

Unfortunately, a pro circuit is not going to happen in North America anytime soon. It has nothing to do with the strength of North American players. If the top East Asian players were transplanted in the U.S., were corporate sponsored, and began playing televised tournaments here, it would still fail. As gowan, Joaz and others have pointed out, there's not enough of a Go fan base or culture for it to be viable. There's no market for it here.

You can't create a popular national pastime into existence by simply marketing it. Creating interest in Go is not like selling soap. Besides, the dominant trend in cultural diffusion has been a West to East trajectory for quite some time. Although that's beginning to change. Perhaps (hopefully), when China becomes the economic superpower that everyone anticipates, the cultural diffusion will shift direction. I can't wait… but I'm sure I'll be long dead before that happens.

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"This is a game that rewards patience and balance. You must think like a man of action and act like a man of thought."
-Jonas Skarssen

Look at martial arts and Yoga for easy examples of this change having occurred.

Yeah. As has been stated before, the base just isn't here (and doesn't really exist outside of CJK) for any kind of true 'pro' system. Defined as either people who can earn a living by playing, teaching or by a set of people who can play in tournaments or individual prize money games. Not enough players, not enough money and not enough national interest. Though I think it is regrettable, right now even cup stacking seems to get more attention than go. So I think any energy spent towards establishing a NA pro system would be much better spent trying to improve the general visibility of the game.

Now, one other aspect of pro systems is the recognition. We already have various ranking systems where you can show off your chops by putting 7d after your name, but if people really felt there needed to be (and I mean NEEDED) a higher level than that then AGA could establish something like a 'Masters' grouping (though I know that name is already used for at least 1 national tournament) to recognize truly exceptional skill and dedication to the game (as opposed to your run of the mill 8ds...). But again, I think even this level of effort and energy could be better spent raising awareness of the game in the first place through offered college scholarships or public demos or New Times/Village Voice style back page ads for clubs (in those cities where they are not already 95%+ medical marijuana ads...) or 'city university' classes.

I think most of us feel NA pros would be fun to see, but I don't think we are anywhere near ready to support them or need them now (or for the next 10-20 years at best probably).

Bruce "Anti" Young

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These "strong players" while strong are not near pro level. Well near is a relative term, in this case 2 or 3 stones. For example, Andy, while very strong and can beat many pros who dont compete anymore, would still likely take at least black from an active pro. When Andy goes to the Korean go clubs in New York, the strongest players refuse to play for money unless they are taking at least a no komi handicap. From this we can deduce that they are at least 2 stones away from a pro.

I think its safe to say that those two stones are larger than 35 or so stones that came prior to it put together.

Is this true? I find the figure incredibly low (for comparison, USA has roughly 55 times people compared to Finland. With that ratio Finnish Go Federation should have approx 36 members, while in reality I believe that we have 5-10 times that)

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I completely agree with HKA. For me, being a professional at Go as much much more than being strong. Being a Go professional in my eyes is completely dedicating oneself to Go. Not to getting stronger, but the game itself - spreading it, playing it, teaching it, creating academies of it, lecturing at it, studying it, everything. I think awarding people professional status on strength alone would undermine the value that has historically been kept with that status in Asia.

If the US was to look at creating a professional association, I believe the administrators of professional status should be those existing professionals residing in America that have been awarded their status through one of the Asian systems.

For what it is worth, this is one of the reasons I feel Dinerchtein is so deserving of his status as a professional player. He lives the game. Even though he's not competing so much at the top end of big tournaments (and I'm sure he'd be the first to admit he'd lose a best of 5 to any of Sedol, ChangHo, Li, Yaoye, Jie etc), he's constantly trying to come up with new initiatives to a) make a living from the game, b) create opportunities for people to improve both in strength and motivation for the game, and c) spread news and enthusiasm about the Go world through his many ventures.

It may sound crazy to have a turn based "insei" league, or a peer to peer networking Go website, or a syndicated go server news portal with all sorts of rumours about who may be who, but lots of people like each of the ideas and embrace them, even though they aren't for everybody. So much of this work is a testament to the attitude that comes with dedicating your life to something, and this feels like what I would like to see rewarded equally to strength for any pro association. Don't get me wrong, strength is vital too, EGF 5 dan and weaker I think is just too weak, but to me it's just one part of a jigsaw that needs all pieces present for professional status.

The asian professional scene is a system of invitational tournaments. Only professionals get invited, and that is what defines them. Professionals get paid for playing in those tournaments. The professional organizations are guilds who appoint their new professional members.

The basis for this system is millions of amateur members and a number of well-paying sponsors (who, in turn, are of course attracted by the millions of interested people).

Of course, it does not have to work that way, but being professional means to make a living from Go. Any proposal for a professional system needs first and foremost to address the question how to pay a dependable salary to a noticeable number of players so that they can live from that.

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A good system naturally covers all corner cases without further effort.

If the stories I've heard are true, there's at least one guy here in the Chicago area who would play Andy or anyone else for money.

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My (sadly neglected, but not forgotten) project: http://dailyjoseki.com

I thought everybody in Finland played Go?

Cho Namchul founded the Korean Baduk Association in 1954, yet, he still recommended Cho Chikun go to Japan to study go in 1962 (at Kitani's school).

Why?

My opinion, it takes time to build the infrastructure. I don't think North America is there yet.



I think it would take at least one brick and mortar go school committed to providing an insei style environment for talented kids *year round* to foster then next generation. (the AGA summer camp is a great program, but it only runs a fraction of the year.)

Does this count in your opinion?

http://www.fengyungoschool.com/

Lots of strong players have come out of there.

gowan has an excellent point about soccer. Soccer is the most popular sport in the world and it still failed in North America. It seems people just don't have much control over what becomes popular and what doesn't, and of course Go would need to become quite popular to sustain a pro association.

What does failure here mean? The MLS does provide a place for many professional US soccer players. Of course it's not the top class of the world, but that's because the US has many other sports that are more popular. I wouldn't call US soccer a failure.

Thank you Oren. I was not aware of feng yun's Go school. It certainly looks like an excellent program.

Agreed. Soccer is succeeding in the U.S., and MLS is part of the reason.

However, despite ambitious expansion, MLS is having some difficulty, attendance is down. There is a reason for this that is very relevant to our discussion.

Americans are used to the best. So while interest in soccer has increased, many fans have quickly realized that the European leagues are the best in the World (Go Toffees!) and so Americans become European fans.

Similarly, even though our top amatuers have their fans, and might have a few more if we called them "pros", we would still know that China/Korea/Japan is where it is at and sophisticated sponsors, if we could get some, would figure that out quickly.

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My days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle

can you tell me the name?? i am wondering if it's the same guy i know.

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"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
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