this tsumego...

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nyuubi
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this tsumego...

Post by nyuubi »

I just can't see it...

It's black to play. Can you enlighten me?
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Boidhre
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Re: this tsumego...

Post by Boidhre »

Maybe I'm being completely dense here but:
is F18 and connecting underneath after he defends the cut the start of it?
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nyuubi
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Re: this tsumego...

Post by nyuubi »

Even if that was the case, white is strong all around. Black has to get some kind of local result like ko maybe.
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HermanHiddema
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Re: this tsumego...

Post by HermanHiddema »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B First black creates an approach problem
$$ +--------------------
$$ | . . . . 9 7 . . . .
$$ | . . X X O 4 5 . . .
$$ | . O O X O 3 6 . O .
$$ | . . X O 1 8 . . . ,
$$ | . . . 2 0 . . . O .
$$ | . . O . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . ,[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm11 Then he captures the stones in the corner
$$ +--------------------
$$ | . 3 . . X X . . . .
$$ | 4 2 X X O O X . . .
$$ | . O O X O . O . O .
$$ | 5 1 X O . O . . . ,
$$ | . . . O O . . . O .
$$ | . . O . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . ,[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm16 White can create bulky five
$$ +--------------------
$$ | 4 X 2 1 X X . . . .
$$ | O O X X O O X . . .
$$ | 3 O O X O . O . O .
$$ | X X X O . O . . . ,
$$ | . . . O O . . . O .
$$ | . . O . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . ,[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm20 But black can create an eye at the side.
$$ +--------------------
$$ | X X X . X X . . . .
$$ | . . X X O O X . . .
$$ | . 1 . X O . O . O .
$$ | X X X O . O . . . ,
$$ | . . . O O . . . O .
$$ | . 2 O . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . ,[/go]
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Uberdude
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Re: this tsumego...

Post by Uberdude »

The double hane tesuji to gain a liberty crops up reasonably often, here is one joseki example.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Play against 3-3 6-4 shimari
$$ --------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 0 . . |
$$ . . . . . . 7 X 9 . |
$$ , . . . X 8 2 1 5 . |
$$ . . . . . . 3 4 6 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]
Obviously black gets super thick this way so usually the outside will be better than the corner life ( :w7: is normally atari at 8 and then extend one point below :w3:, sacrificing the corner to squeeze on the outside and then extend), but it's nice to be able to live if you want to.
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nyuubi
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Re: this tsumego...

Post by nyuubi »

Thanks guys. I can see it now. This'll be useful to know:)
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Tryss
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Re: this tsumego...

Post by Tryss »

HermanHiddema wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B First black creates an approach problem
$$ +--------------------
$$ | . . . . 9 7 . . . .
$$ | . . X X O 4 5 . . .
$$ | . O O X O 3 6 . O .
$$ | . . X O 1 8 . . . ,
$$ | . . . 2 0 . . . O .
$$ | . . O . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . ,[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm11 Then he captures the stones in the corner
$$ +--------------------
$$ | . 3 . . X X . . . .
$$ | 4 2 X X O O X . . .
$$ | . O O X O . O . O .
$$ | 5 1 X O . O . . . ,
$$ | . . . O O . . . O .
$$ | . . O . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . ,[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm16 White can create bulky five
$$ +--------------------
$$ | 4 X 2 1 X X . . . .
$$ | O O X X O O X . . .
$$ | 3 O O X O . O . O .
$$ | X X X O . O . . . ,
$$ | . . . O O . . . O .
$$ | . . O . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . ,[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm20 But black can create an eye at the side.
$$ +--------------------
$$ | X X X . X X . . . .
$$ | . . X X O O X . . .
$$ | . 1 . X O . O . O .
$$ | X X X O . O . . . ,
$$ | . . . O O . . . O .
$$ | . 2 O . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . ,[/go]
What about letting black "escape" and kill it outside?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +--------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X X O . . . . .
$$ | . O O X O . . . O .
$$ | . 2 X O 1 . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . O .
$$ | . . O . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . ,[/go]
It seems very hard for black to live here (unless I miss an obvious line).
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Uberdude
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Re: this tsumego...

Post by Uberdude »

Tryss wrote:
What about letting black "escape" and kill it outside?

It seems very hard for black to live here (unless I miss an obvious line).
Seems very hard to kill for white here. Either black gets out the big gap or captures the 2 stones (maybe you missed black a?).
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +--------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X X O . . . . .
$$ | . O O X O . a . O .
$$ | . 2 X . 1 . . . . ,
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . O .
$$ | . . O . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . ,[/go]
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Tryss
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Re: this tsumego...

Post by Tryss »

How black at a capture?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +--------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X X O a 6 b . .
$$ | . O O X O . 5 . O .
$$ | . 2 X . 1 . . . . ,
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . O .
$$ | . . O . . 4 . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . ,[/go]
a) :
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +--------------------
$$ | . . . . . 4 . . . .
$$ | . . X X O 1 O 5 . .
$$ | . O O X O 2 X 6 O .
$$ | . O X . X 3 . . . ,
$$ | . . . X . . . . O .
$$ | . . O . . O . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . ,[/go]
b) :
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +--------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X X O . O 1 . .
$$ | . O O X O 2 X . O .
$$ | . O X . X . . . . ,
$$ | . . . X . . . . O .
$$ | . . O . . O . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . ,[/go]
Maybie I miss something, but it looks not trivial to me.
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illluck
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Re: this tsumego...

Post by illluck »

Perhaps this?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +--------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X X O . O 1 6 .
$$ | . O O X O 2 X 4 O .
$$ | . O X . X 3 5 . . ,
$$ | . . . X . . . . O .
$$ | . . O . . O 7 . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . ,[/go]
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