Is this bad ettiqutte?

[Buri]

Greetings,
as a low ranked player on KGS I have come across this phenomenon quite often.
The game is more or less finished but there are a few end game points that are clearly valuable and need to be played. One opponent presses pass but I just play one of these obvious points. Should I have apologized first on the chat boxY?
The other player then gets angry and starts slamming dead stones down in secure territory , perhaps in the believe that they are depriving me of points.It just makes a boring and unpleasant end to a nice game.
I have come across this fairly often.
Is it really bad etiquette or considered reasonable, perhaps in the hope I make a really silly mistake?
Cheers,
Buri

[shapenaji]

I won't deny there are times when we'll get to the end of the game, and I know I'm behind, and I see some odd aji in one of their territories. I'll fill all the dame and then go for it.

If there's something interesting there, then as far as I'm concerned, it's not impolite, even if it doesn't work.

On the other hand, if they're stalling the game by just placing random moves, not only do I think that's impolite.. but I believe it's against the KGS TOS... Somebody else know if this is correct?

[speedchase]

It is fine to keep playing if your opponent passes, however playing stones that you know can't live without a mistake is very rude. That being said, it is possible at the low ranks that your opponent thinks they actually can live, and especially for weak players it is important to experiment when your not sure.

[Buri]

Greetings,
thanks for your replies.
My feeling sometimes is that low kyuu players don't actually know that they are not taking my territory by placing stones that are dead on arrival.
The endgame aspect seems to be the least focused on in the beginning.
Certainly true in my case...
Cheers,
Buuri

[tchan001]

Trying to win by time is also a valid tactic in go. May seem rude when you are obviously losing big on the board even if there are no real points left to play. But it's the responsibility of each player to manage the amount of time they use in a game according to the rules they agreed to at the beginning of play

[judicata]

Trying to win by time is also a valid tactic in go. May seem rude when you are obviously losing big on the board even if there are no real points left to play. But it's the responsibility of each player to manage the amount of time they use in a game according to the rules they agreed to at the beginning of play

To be fair, not everyone thinks that way, and playing bad moves to win on time is against the rules in some tournaments (though often not enforced or enforceable).

[DJLLAP]

Greetings,
as a low ranked player on KGS I have come across this phenomenon quite often.
The game is more or less finished but there are a few end game points that are clearly valuable and need to be played. One opponent presses pass but I just play one of these obvious points. Should I have apologized first on the chat boxY?
The other player then gets angry and starts slamming dead stones down in secure territory , perhaps in the believe that they are depriving me of points.It just makes a boring and unpleasant end to a nice game.
I have come across this fairly often.
Is it really bad etiquette or considered reasonable, perhaps in the hope I make a really silly mistake?
Cheers,
Buri

Your story kind of reminds me of a game that I had on KGS several months ago. I believe that my opponent was a newcomer to KGS and his English was not very proficient, so there may have been some added issues from that. As we played I gained an insurmountable lead, but there was still quite a bit of endgame to play with the edges of the board still undefined. My opponent passed. When I continued play he stated that he did not like my "persistence". I tried to explain that the game was not over and he became angry and argued that the game was most certainly over. He eventually ended up leaving without completing the game. Afterward I realized that the root of the whole issue was that he probably did not know how to resign, and thought that passing was the only way to end the game.

The moral of the story is that you certainly did not do anything wrong by continuing play, but it also sounds like your opponent was responding to a perceived discourtesy. There may have been many reasons for this misunderstanding, so try to understand before you start to get angry yourself.

[HKA]

I take this opportunity to once again enter my plea for finishing games on KGS.

So many folks I encounter seem to think that since we are playing Japanese rules, it is wrong to play the dame. In reality - I have NEVER seen a face to face game played out and counted that the players did not fill the dame. Note that I am not playing sudden death here - I am not trying to run people out of time.

There are 4 reasons why I do this, and everyone else should as well.

First - if you ever intend on playing face to face in tournaments, you will need to do this. And under some rulesets, AGA for example, the dame count.

Second - Most important, you need to have experience with what happens when the outside liberties are filled and aji happens. The weaker a player you are, the more experience you are robbing yourself of by not reading out defences and attacks carefully - and putting your reading to the test. I have been predictably outplayed by "stronger" players in tournaments, only to win in the endgame because I am more familiar with these issues because they do not practice in their online games.

Third - KGS scoring occaisionaly makes mistakes if dame are not filled. A point here...a point there.

Fourth - it is a nice, calm decompression before you find out the result.

There is only one reason not to fill them, and it is rarely, if ever, a good one, at least in my games.

It saves time. Well, I have three responses to that, aside from the importance of my second pro point above.

First - Really? 80% of the time if the game has reached this point, and I have not resigned, then I am more than 10 pts ahead and resigning would have saved far more time, particularly since we played out that half point ko for 20 moves.

Second - if the game is close, then (a) lets be careful about my third point above and (b) oh you are going to defend that internal problem you have? might have saved time by just doing it instead of passing.

Third - passing every time while I play the dame and you make remarks that I do not know what I am doing in a game I am winning actually takes more than twice the time it would to help me. And seriously, how much time are we really talking about here?

Again this is not a winning on time issue. And it should not be a, oh you are just trying to win with a trick issue. Internal aji is part of the game there is no shame in exploiting it, only shame in not seeing it. In fact, in a world where the "meaningless" outside liberties are not filled, I have seen weaker players simply knee jerk defend as if ordered to by the stronger player's play on the outside, when they are strong enough to read that they did not need the defense, but are convinced that white would only play there if there was something.

Just fill them in, thank your opponent in advance and get an accurate result.

[Bill Spight]

The biggest change to my game under the Japanese '89 rules was to fill all the dame before passing. If it makes the game longer, it is only by a matter of seconds. No big deal.

Edit: The point about filling dame under the '89 rules is that groups with dame have no territory.

[gowan]

In the games I play, admittedly not usually tournament games, if the difference in score is 10 points or so towards the end of the endgame the player who is behind resigns. When the score is closer, even though it is clear that one player will likely win, we play all the dame and rearrange the board to score the game. I find that playing out the dame is often a reflective time when I review the game in my mind and co back to the real world, so to speak. It is an important part of actually playing the game.