This happened in one of my IGS games, last night, and I did not respond correctly. What should black do? (Black wants to keep outward influence or take the left side. Reclaiming the corner is playable too if white is left thin but black has a deep moyo on the right, center, and, ideally, doesn't want white to have too much power to attack it.)
Last night, I played at a and lost the whole corner. I won the game, ultimately, but felt that this was my biggest mistake. (If a is the right response, how does it go?)
3-3 Invasion Deviation
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topazg
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Re: 3-3 Invasion Deviation
This is my first instinct - if White "a" then Black "b", if White "c" then Black "d", White "e", Black "f"
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shapenaji
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Re: 3-3 Invasion Deviation
before anything else, it should be noted that whenever white has a stone at one of the points marked 'a', the invasion at 1 is considerably more powerful and 4 is generally a mistake.
Simple but pretty effective
this actually works fine as well
Tactics yes, Tact no...
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Sverre
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Re: 3-3 Invasion Deviation
Needs the ladder, though
I feel the direct block is safer; there's a squeeze but I don't know if it does White much good
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Charlie
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Re: 3-3 Invasion Deviation
Hmm... I wondered if 4 was actually the mistake. How should black have responded to 1?
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Sverre
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Re: 3-3 Invasion Deviation
Charlie wrote:Hmm... I wondered if 4 was actually the mistake. How should black have responded to 1?
This is one way to play, assuming that hane with 4 isn't playable and that you're OK with thickness facing the right and center.
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Loons
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Re: 3-3 Invasion Deviation
I'm just curious that no-one has mentioned black's first move at C2? It's not easy, but is there an obvious reason black needs to start by thinking about b5 (or 4) ?
(I don't see white being fast enough to live in the corner and get an ok result outside, but I haven't had my coffee yet so who knows).
(I don't see white being fast enough to live in the corner and get an ok result outside, but I haven't had my coffee yet so who knows).
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EdLee
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is a very natural first feeling and shape move:-
entropi
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Re: 3-3 Invasion Deviation
questions on EdLee's last diagram
First I fully agree that white shape seems bad, but:
It seem (just seems, read nothing) white can easily live by crawling a few steps on second line, and keep sente (because black has to something about white's cutting stone). Is this correct? And then, we all know crawling on second line is terrible, etc but considering that it was 3-3 invasion right from the start anyway, would white
result be so bad?
First I fully agree that white shape seems bad, but:
It seem (just seems, read nothing) white can easily live by crawling a few steps on second line, and keep sente (because black has to something about white's cutting stone). Is this correct? And then, we all know crawling on second line is terrible, etc but considering that it was 3-3 invasion right from the start anyway, would white
result be so bad?
If you say no, Elwood and I will come here for breakfast, lunch, and dinner every day of the week.
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Bill Spight
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Re: 3-3 Invasion Deviation
Transposition. 
White has transposed to a joseki that seems ill-advised with the Black stones already on the side.
The play through 
follows that joseki. Then, instead of pushing again, White lives in the corner. The result looks pretty bad for White.
White has transposed to a joseki that seems ill-advised with the Black stones already on the side.
The play through follows that joseki. Then, instead of pushing again, White lives in the corner. The result looks pretty bad for White.The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Charlie
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Re: 3-3 Invasion Deviation
I like Bill's outcome for black - it looks favourable in general - but in the actual game that raised this question, I think it would have been a thing of beauty and white would surely have resigned immediately.