I'm going with b as I already reasoned that it leaves me to tenuki first and thus play a. His last stone will nullify the effect of my wall though. The other option of taking the side and corner though and giving him the outside is too generous though I think. Though definitely this is sub optimal with his last move.
Last edited by Boidhre on Wed May 09, 2012 12:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Drewch wrote:(1) So the corners are definitely the most bang for your buck, essentially making it the "Biggest" play. But in terms of the Biggest move, I definitely agree that corner's are the biggest move, and then the sides, and then the center of the board.
(2) In terms of territory though, I know that the third line's being white all around the board, and the black taking 4th line all around the board. Gives the closest ratio to 1 (black owns all center territory, and white owns all side+corners). So in this sense, the territory amount possible is Center>Sides>Corner
(1) and (2) still contradict each other, so you're still saying two opposite things and trying to get away with it. Let's see a diagram with an exact count for (2). Let's see what you mean by (2).
B missed a big chance with ; instead, starts an attack on the group while expanding the lower right moyo -- W would be too busy to worry about (a) or (b):
[go]$$B $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O , X . X O . , . . . O X O O X . | $$ | . . . . X O O . . . . O . . O X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
Sorry, I couldn't have the numbers on there properly.
Please try to number the lower right corner variation, starting with a move 1. If you have to show more than 10 moves, make a new diagram starting with move 11.
Drewch wrote:(1) So the corners are definitely the most bang for your buck, essentially making it the "Biggest" play. But in terms of the Biggest move, I definitely agree that corner's are the biggest move, and then the sides, and then the center of the board.
(2) In terms of territory though, I know that the third line's being white all around the board, and the black taking 4th line all around the board. Gives the closest ratio to 1 (black owns all center territory, and white owns all side+corners). So in this sense, the territory amount possible is Center>Sides>Corner
(1) and (2) still contradict each other, so you're still saying two opposite things and trying to get away with it. Let's see a diagram with an exact count for (2). Let's see what you mean by (2).
$$Bcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O . . | $$ | . . O X X X X X X X X X X X X X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X X X X X X X X X X X X X O . . | $$ | . . O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O . . | $$ | . . O X X X X X X X X X X X X X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X X X X X X X X X X X X X O . . | $$ | . . O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
white has 136 points, Black has 121. This is pretty close. In fact I think this was why the board was designed ot be 19x19, because in any sized board, the 3rd line is easiest to make territory.
Therefore, by this diagram, the Middle is theoretically having the most potential for territory, even though it is extremely harder to get.
I know I'm contradicting myself, which is why I feel uneasy about it.
I agree that the biggest moves early game are in the corner, however, for whatever reason, I feel like I could get an entire side, while giving up half the left corner, but possibly both corners now that I am seeing it play out. And I felt like the side would get me more points
$$B $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O . . | $$ | . . O X X X X X X X X X X X X X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X X X X X X X X X X X X X O . . | $$ | . . O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$B $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O . . | $$ | . . O X X X X X X X X X X X X X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X X X X X X X X X X X X X O . . | $$ | . . O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
(1) white has 136 points, Black has 121. (2) Therefore, by this diagram, the Middle is theoretically having the most potential for territory...
From (1), W has MORE points than B. From (2), you're saying B has more -- please reconcile yourself. Which is it? You cannot say both (1) "W has more" and (2) "B has more" at the same time! You can only pick one. Which is it?!
Follow-up question: how many moves did W get in the above diagram, and how many for B?
$$B $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O . . | $$ | . . O X X X X X X X X X X X X X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X X X X X X X X X X X X X O . . | $$ | . . O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$B $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O . . | $$ | . . O X X X X X X X X X X X X X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X X X X X X X X X X X X X O . . | $$ | . . O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
(1) white has 136 points, Black has 121. (2) Therefore, by this diagram, the Middle is theoretically having the most potential for territory...
From (1), W has MORE points than B. From (2), you're saying B has more -- please reconcile yourself. Which is it? You cannot say both (1) "W has more" and (2) "B has more" at the same time! You can only pick one. Which is it?!
Follow-up question: how many moves did W get in the above diagram, and how many for B?
White has 136 Points, Black has 121 Points White has Corners AND sides. Black has Middle.
Therefore, since Corner + sides = Middle + E Where E is a relatively small amount of points in comparison to total number of points. I can say that Middle has more territory than corners and sides (separately), obviously not together.
Therefore, my guess would be that middle is more territory, then sides, then corners. But it is either
Middle > sides > corners I believe is the one that is correct.
But I am not saying that the middle is more than SIDES and CORNERS together. I am saying middle is the largest of the three.
Follow up Question: W has made 4 More moves. I was just commenting on why the board size was 19x19 and using it to demonstrate the borders of middle and side+corner. Since third line is the easiest to make territory.
<<EDIT>> I know this whole thing depends on context of the situation, and the situation will never be as I just drew it out.
I also know that I'm probably wrong about the middle being "more" territory. It may be more actually, but I now see that the corner is "bigger" because it takes WAY less moves to secure the corner or side then it does the middle.
EdLee is trying to lead you to a conclusion, but the two of you are thinking about the board differently and that makes it difficult for you to see the lesson he's trying to gift to you. I'd love to be a bit more direct than Ed, but I'm worried about helping one side or the other ... call me paranoid, if you will.
EdLee is trying to lead you to a conclusion, but the two of you are thinking about the board differently and that makes it difficult for you to see the lesson he's trying to gift to you. I'd love to be a bit more direct than Ed, but I'm worried about helping one side or the other ... call me paranoid, if you will.
@Marcus
I know he's trying to gift me a lesson, and I am very appreciative of it. I am in no way overly trying to defend my flawed view. I've already said that I feel silly several time going with the questions still even though I know they are wrong.
The only reason I am still defending my side is because Ed is getting at it in the form of questions, and then a contradiction at the end to prove it wrong. And I like his style, because the more I defend it and then realize it's wrong, the more the lesson will stick with me.
I hope that I am not coming across as not appreciate or that I'm trying to prove Ed wrong. I know that I am wrong. I am going along with Ed's teaching style for this case, which I happen to like a lot.
I hope my last post was clear with what I meant about the middle being bigger than the corner and sides (separately)
$$B $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O . . | $$ | . . O X X X X X X X X X X X X X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X X X X X X X X X X X X X O . . | $$ | . . O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$B $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O . . | $$ | . . O X X X X X X X X X X X X X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X X X X X X X X X X X X X O . . | $$ | . . O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
(1) white has 136 points, Black has 121. (2) Therefore, by this diagram, the Middle is theoretically having the most potential for territory...
From (1), W has MORE points than B. From (2), you're saying B has more -- please reconcile yourself. Which is it? You cannot say both (1) "W has more" and (2) "B has more" at the same time! You can only pick one. Which is it?!
Follow-up question: how many moves did W get in the above diagram, and how many for B?
White has 136 Points, Black has 121 Points White has Corners AND sides. Black has Middle.
Therefore, since Corner + sides = Middle + E Where E is a relatively small amount of points in comparison to total number of points. I can say that Middle has more territory than corners and sides (separately), obviously not together.
Therefore, my guess would be that middle is more territory, then sides, then corners. But it is either
Middle > sides > corners I believe is the one that is correct.
But I am not saying that the middle is more than SIDES and CORNERS together. I am saying middle is the largest of the three.
Follow up Question: W has made 4 More moves. I was just commenting on why the board size was 19x19 and using it to demonstrate the borders of middle and side+corner. Since third line is the easiest to make territory.
<<EDIT>> I know this whole thing depends on context of the situation, and the situation will never be as I just drew it out.
I also know that I'm probably wrong about the middle being "more" territory. It may be more actually, but I now see that the corner is "bigger" because it takes WAY less moves to secure the corner or side then it does the middle.
White has made 8 more plays.
The Adkins Principle: At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
. Instead:
starts an attack on the 
group while expanding the lower right moyo --
