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This 'n' that

https://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=12327

Page 70 of 71

Re: This 'n' that

Posted: Wed Jun 30, 2021 2:12 pm
by Gérard TAILLE
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
I did, in the diagram with 3 4 point gote. In the intended diagram with 4 4 point gote, the 2 miai pairs act as defensive ko threats for White if Black takes the ko. Besides, the hane sets up the sente to hold White to ½ point less than if Black does not play the hane. :)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W White to play
$$ --------------
$$ | a O . . X . . . . . . .
$$ | 1 X O O X . . . . . . .
$$ | X . O X X . . . . . . .
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . .
$$ | b O X X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | X X . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | X X X X X X O . . . . .
$$ | X O O O O . O . . . . .
$$ | X X X X X X O . . . . .
$$ | X O O O O . O . . . . .
$$ | X X X X X X O . . . . .
$$ | X O O O O . O . . . . .
$$ | X X X X X X O . . . . .
$$ | X O O O O . O . . . . .
$$ |------------------------[/go]
In your sequences, on :w1: I see only the answer black hane at "b" but not my suggestion black takes at "a".
What is your answer if black takes at "a"?
edit : four gote points in the environment instead of three

Re: This 'n' that

Posted: Thu Jul 01, 2021 4:28 am
by Bill Spight
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W White to play
$$ --------------
$$ | a O . . X . . . . . . .
$$ | 1 X O O X . . . . . . .
$$ | X . O X X . . . . . . .
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . .
$$ | b O X X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | X X . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | X X X X X X O . . . . .
$$ | X O O O O . O . . . . .
$$ | X X X X X X O . . . . .
$$ | X O O O O . O . . . . .
$$ | X X X X X X O . . . . .
$$ | X O O O O . O . . . . .
$$ | X X X X X X O . . . . .
$$ | X O O O O . O . . . . .
$$ |------------------------[/go]
In your sequences, on :w1: I see only the answer black hane at "b" but not my suggestion black takes at "a".
What is your answer if black takes at "a"?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W White to play
$$ --------------
$$ | 2 O . . X . . . . . . .
$$ | 1 X O O X . . . . . . .
$$ | X . O X X . . . . . . .
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . .
$$ | 3 O X X . . . . . . . .
$$ | 4 X . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | X X . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | X X X X X X O . . . . .
$$ | X O O O O . O . . . . .
$$ | X X X X X X O . . . . .
$$ | X O O O O . O . . . . .
$$ | X X X X X X O . . . . .
$$ | X O O O O . O . . . . .
$$ | X X X X X X O . . . . .
$$ | X O O O O . O . . . . .
$$ |------------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W White to play
$$ --------------
$$ | 2 O . . X . . . . . . .
$$ | 1 X O O X . . . . . . .
$$ | X . O X X . . . . . . .
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . .
$$ | 4 O X X . . . . . . . .
$$ | 3 X . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | X X . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | X X X X X X O . . . . .
$$ | X O O O O . O . . . . .
$$ | X X X X X X O . . . . .
$$ | X O O O O . O . . . . .
$$ | X X X X X X O . . . . .
$$ | X O O O O . O . . . . .
$$ | X X X X X X O . . . . .
$$ | X O O O O . O . . . . .
$$ |------------------------[/go]
Both of these sequences lose 2 points to the initial sagari, I believe.

Re: This 'n' that

Posted: Thu Jul 01, 2021 7:53 am
by Gérard TAILLE
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W White to play
$$ --------------
$$ | . O . b X . . . . . . .
$$ | a X O O X . . . . . . .
$$ | X . O X X . . . . . . .
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | X X . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | X X X X X X O . . . . .
$$ | X O O O O . O . . . . .
$$ | X X X X X X O . . . . .
$$ | X O O O O . O . . . . .
$$ | X X X X X X O . . . . .
$$ | X O O O O . O . . . . .
$$ | X X X X X X O . . . . .
$$ | X O O O O . O . . . . .
$$ |------------------------[/go]
In the position above, are you now convinced that the sagari is the best move or are you still analysing the different variants?

Re: This 'n' that

Posted: Thu Jul 01, 2021 9:23 am
by Bill Spight
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W White to play
$$ --------------
$$ | . O . b X . . . . . . .
$$ | a X O O X . . . . . . .
$$ | X . O X X . . . . . . .
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | X X . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | X X X X X X O . . . . .
$$ | X O O O O . O . . . . .
$$ | X X X X X X O . . . . .
$$ | X O O O O . O . . . . .
$$ | X X X X X X O . . . . .
$$ | X O O O O . O . . . . .
$$ | X X X X X X O . . . . .
$$ | X O O O O . O . . . . .
$$ |------------------------[/go]
In the position above, are you now convinced that the sagari is the best move or are you still analysing the different variants?
Yesterday, as a favor to you, I did a fairly exhaustive analysis of the ko ensemble with 3 simple gote, because you had expressed some doubts. Later I was in a rush on the 4 simple gote ko ensemble and now believe that the initial sagari is better in that case.

Re: This 'n' that

Posted: Thu Jul 01, 2021 1:27 pm
by Gérard TAILLE
Bill Spight wrote: Yesterday, as a favor to you, I did a fairly exhaustive analysis of the ko ensemble with 3 simple gote, because you had expressed some doubts. Later I was in a rush on the 4 simple gote ko ensemble and now believe that the initial sagari is better in that case.
With this last answer I have no more doubt on the fact that it exists environment implying sagari is the best move. I appreciate your help Bill, thank you very much for all the time you use for that.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W White to play
$$ --------------
$$ | . O . b X . . . . . . .
$$ | a X O O X . . . . . . .
$$ | X . O X X . . . . . . .
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | X X . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
My goal is to try to draw the thermograph of the position above but it is not easy !

OC I will first try to draw the thermograph of the position:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W White to play
$$ --------------
$$ | . O . . X . . . . . . .
$$ | O X O O X . . . . . . .
$$ | X . O X X . . . . . . .
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | X X . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
more later

Re: This 'n' that

Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2021 8:14 am
by Bill Spight
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W White to play
$$ --------------
$$ | . O . b X . . . . . . .
$$ | a X O O X . . . . . . .
$$ | X . O X X . . . . . . .
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | X X . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
My goal is to try to draw the thermograph of the position above but it is not easy !

OC I will first try to draw the thermograph of the position:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W White to play
$$ --------------
$$ | . O . . X . . . . . . .
$$ | O X O O X . . . . . . .
$$ | X . O X X . . . . . . .
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | X X . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
more later
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Sagari
$$ --------------
$$ | . O . O X . . . . . . .
$$ | . X O O X . . . . . . .
$$ | X . O X X . . . . . . .
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | X X . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
For the thermograph of the position after the sagari, this may be of interest. Hidden out of courtesy. :)


As is plain, with no ko threats, at temperature 7 the mast value is 0.



At lower temperatures, such as t = 4, Black does better not to make the ko. :)

Re: This 'n' that

Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 7:58 am
by Bill Spight
It seems like the size of each of 4 gote in the ko ensemble such that the result for the sagari and the throw-in is the same is a miai value of 7½ points of territory. :)



That is big enough for White to sacrifice the corner.

The fact that taking the gote gains 7½ points may not be obvious. One one side it takes 8 points of territory, but on the other side it leaves a gote position worth, on average, ½ point to the other player. They are not simple gote, but, since there will be 4 of them at the end, they will be strict miai, adding up to an integer score. :)

Re: This 'n' that

Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 1:59 pm
by Gérard TAILLE
Bill Spight wrote:It seems like the size of each of 4 gote in the ko ensemble such that the result for the sagari and the throw-in is the same is a miai value of 7½ points of territory. :)



That is big enough for White to sacrifice the corner.

The fact that taking the gote gains 7½ points may not be obvious. One one side it takes 8 points of territory, but on the other side it leaves a gote position worth, on average, ½ point to the other player. They are not simple gote, but, since there will be 4 of them at the end, they will be strict miai, adding up to an integer score. :)
A lot of stuff Bill, and only two comments (hoping I am not wrong):



Re: This 'n' that

Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 2:58 pm
by Bill Spight
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:It seems like the size of each of 4 gote in the ko ensemble such that the result for the sagari and the throw-in is the same is a miai value of 7½ points of territory. :)



That is big enough for White to sacrifice the corner.

The fact that taking the gote gains 7½ points may not be obvious. One one side it takes 8 points of territory, but on the other side it leaves a gote position worth, on average, ½ point to the other player. They are not simple gote, but, since there will be 4 of them at the end, they will be strict miai, adding up to an integer score. :)
A lot of stuff Bill, and only two comments (hoping I am not wrong):



I was playing the game out at territory temperature 0. In which case there is no pass stone for Black. :)

In the beginning you did not specify the conditions, and when I said I assumed no ko threats and territory temperature 0, you did not object. You often leave me guessing. :(

Re: This 'n' that

Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 3:09 pm
by Gérard TAILLE
Bill Spight wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:It seems like the size of each of 4 gote in the ko ensemble such that the result for the sagari and the throw-in is the same is a miai value of 7½ points of territory. :)



That is big enough for White to sacrifice the corner.

The fact that taking the gote gains 7½ points may not be obvious. One one side it takes 8 points of territory, but on the other side it leaves a gote position worth, on average, ½ point to the other player. They are not simple gote, but, since there will be 4 of them at the end, they will be strict miai, adding up to an integer score. :)
A lot of stuff Bill, and only two comments (hoping I am not wrong):



I was playing the game out at territory temperature 0. In which case there is no pass stone for Black. :)

In the beginning you did not specify the conditions, and when I said I assumed no ko threats and territory temperature 0, you did not object. You often leave me guessing. :(
Sorry Bill I was not aware that playing the game out at territory temperature 0 means no pass stone. Do not forget I am not an expert :(
What about my second comment?

Re: This 'n' that

Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 4:05 pm
by Bill Spight
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:I was playing the game out at territory temperature 0. In which case there is no pass stone for Black. :)

In the beginning you did not specify the conditions, and when I said I assumed no ko threats and territory temperature 0, you did not object. You often leave me guessing. :(
Sorry Bill I was not aware that playing the game out at territory temperature 0 means no pass stone. Do not forget I am not an expert :(
What about my second comment?
Your second comment also relies upon the pass stone, no?

Edit: Sorry. :w5: is already a mistake. Thanks. :)

----

Territory temperature 1 is the same as area temperature 2. So an ideal environment for the simple 1st line hanetsugi at area scoring must include Japanese dame, which have area temperature 1. :)

Re: This 'n' that

Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2021 5:49 am
by Gérard TAILLE
Bill Spight wrote:It seems like the size of each of 4 gote in the ko ensemble such that the result for the sagari and the throw-in is the same is a miai value of 7½ points of territory. :)



That is big enough for White to sacrifice the corner.

The fact that taking the gote gains 7½ points may not be obvious. One one side it takes 8 points of territory, but on the other side it leaves a gote position worth, on average, ½ point to the other player. They are not simple gote, but, since there will be 4 of them at the end, they will be strict miai, adding up to an integer score. :)
I do not see what these 7½ points of territory means in the context of finding the thermograph of the position
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W White to play
$$ --------------
$$ | . O . b X . . . . . . .
$$ | a X O O X . . . . . . .
$$ | X . O X X . . . . . . .
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | X X . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
Could you clarify what was your goal with this example Bill?
I used myself an environment with miai gote points to prove that the sagari may be the best move but I do not like very much such environment made of miai points. The goal seems clearly to use tunnelling effect in order to prove a specif point but I do not see how it could be useful to find a thermograph.

Re: This 'n' that

Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2021 6:26 am
by Gérard TAILLE
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W White to play
$$ --------------
$$ | . O . b X . . . . . . .
$$ | a X O O X . . . . . . .
$$ | X . O X X . . . . . . .
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | X X . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
I progress very slowly. For the time being I think the miai value of the position above is equal to 7 but I am not quite sure:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W White to play
$$ --------------
$$ | 4 O . 1 X . . . . . . .
$$ | 5 X O O X . . . . . . .
$$ | X 7 O X X . . . . . . .
$$ | 3 O O X . . . . . . . .
$$ | 2 O X X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | X X . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
:b6: tenuki
:b8: tenuki
Score1 = -7 + 2t
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play
$$ --------------
$$ | 3 O 5 1 X . . . . . . .
$$ | 2 X O O X . . . . . . .
$$ | X . O X X . . . . . . .
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | X X . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
:w4: tenuki
:w6: tenuki
Score2 = 21 - 2t

Score 1 = Score2 <=> -7 + 2t = 21 - 2t <=> t = 7

Re: This 'n' that

Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2021 7:27 am
by Bill Spight
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:It seems like the size of each of 4 gote in the ko ensemble such that the result for the sagari and the throw-in is the same is a miai value of 7½ points of territory. :)
I do not see what these 7½ points of territory means in the context of finding the thermograph of the position
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W White to play
$$ --------------
$$ | . O . b X . . . . . . .
$$ | a X O O X . . . . . . .
$$ | X . O X X . . . . . . .
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | X X . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
Nothing directly. It has to do with the ko ensemble. Comparing the sagari and the throw-in in a ko position has to do with von Neumann game theory.
Gérard TAILLE wrote:Could you clarify what was your goal with this example Bill?
To do what I did. You found the size of the gote that equalized the results for 3 gote, but what is the size for 4 gote? :)

Re: This 'n' that

Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2021 10:32 am
by Gérard TAILLE
Bill Spight wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:It seems like the size of each of 4 gote in the ko ensemble such that the result for the sagari and the throw-in is the same is a miai value of 7½ points of territory. :)
I do not see what these 7½ points of territory means in the context of finding the thermograph of the position
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W White to play
$$ --------------
$$ | . O . b X . . . . . . .
$$ | a X O O X . . . . . . .
$$ | X . O X X . . . . . . .
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | X X . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
Nothing directly. It has to do with the ko ensemble. Comparing the sagari and the throw-in in a ko position has to do with von Neumann game theory.
Gérard TAILLE wrote:Could you clarify what was your goal with this example Bill?
To do what I did. You found the size of the gote that equalized the results for 3 gote, but what is the size for 4 gote? :)
Yes Bill with 4 gote the environment {+7½|-7½} + {+7½|-7½} + {+7½|-7½} + {+7½|-7½} works even with pure gote.
Your proposal {+7½|-7½} + {+7½|-7½} + {+7½|-7½} + {+7½|-7½} + {+½|-½} + {+½|-½} + {+½|-½} + {+½|-½} works also but it looks like 8 gote points.

Can't we go farther with the environment {+11|-11} + {+11|-11} + {+2|-2} + {+2|-2} which is also made of miai points?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W White to play
$$ --------------
$$ | . O . b X X O O O O O O O O O O O . O |
$$ | a X O O X X X X X X X X X X X X X X O |
$$ | X . O X X X O O O O O O O O O O O . O |
$$ | . O O X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X O |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . X O O . O |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X O |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . O |
$$ | X X . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
I do not know if we can reach a higher temperature with only 4 pure gote points in a miai situation.
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