Page 2 of 3
Re: Next EGF Professionals
Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 1:35 pm
by Uberdude
Re: Next EGF Professionals
Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 1:53 pm
by Bill Spight
Pippen wrote:I think the professional Go must behave professional, i.e. trying to go for the money. One way is to build up an image, a brand...and one important aspect is clothing. No top venture would sponsor guys that look like trivial students. Go tournaments and go players must be treated very closely to what composers and musicians in a classic orchestra are treated like. There must be a smell of elitarity around them and that starts with a dress and behaviour code. The next step has to be to choose only elitarian hotels for the top tournaments, even if that means less tournaments, continued by an constant push for publicity by trying to offer articles to big newspapers and to cover main matches through the Internet constantly. And then of course EGF has to use the advantage of the chaotic asian market and establish a simple world champ system very closely to what chess did till 1995.
I know that sounds bold and compromises a lot of inherent go values - it would destroy the loveliness of the small go community in the western world - but if you think professionally, if you want someone to "show you the money" you gotta act accordingly.
Actually, if you consider tournament bridge in the mid-20th century (before about 1960, I guess), you do see players dressing rather formally. And there was a genteel atmosphere. But that ship has sailed. And I don't see much value in trying to bring it back for go.
Re: Next EGF Professionals
Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 3:10 pm
by Pippen
Bill Spight wrote:And there was a genteel atmosphere. But that ship has sailed. And I don't see much value in trying to bring it back for go.
I basically agree. But of course the consequence will be that those EGF pro's will never make much money in Europe and America, and to make it in Asia they are too weak. Then after a couple of years when those young men are over 30 they might quit Go because they will have friends that are average in their profession and still double their income. That'd be a waste. Those pro's have to stay with Go like Catalin Taranu or Alex Dinerchtein to promote Go more efficently and later work in Go institutions.
Re: Next EGF Professionals
Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 4:43 pm
by Bill Spight
Pippen wrote:Bill Spight wrote:And there was a genteel atmosphere. But that ship has sailed. And I don't see much value in trying to bring it back for go.
I basically agree. But of course the consequence will be that those EGF pro's will never make much money in Europe and America, and to make it in Asia they are too weak. Then after a couple of years when those young men are over 30 they might quit Go because they will have friends that are average in their profession and still double their income. That'd be a waste. Those pro's have to stay with Go like Catalin Taranu or Alex Dinerchtein to promote Go more efficently and later work in Go institutions.
Tournaments need sponsors and teaching pros need students. Go pros are a new thing in the West. I think that it is too early to predict gloom and doom.
Re: Next EGF Professionals
Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 5:32 pm
by DrStraw
Bill Spight wrote:
Tournaments need sponsors and teaching pros need students. Go pros are a new thing in the West. I think that it is too early to predict gloom and doom.
Is it okay to predict gloom
or doom?
Re: Next EGF Professionals
Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2015 1:21 am
by John Fairbairn
Tournaments need sponsors and teaching pros need students. Go pros are a new thing in the West. I think that it is too early to predict gloom and doom.
If I may repeat something I have said before: when reading about the history of the professional organisations in the various oriental countries I have always been struck by the immense amount of work done by the pros themselves to create their own environment. They did not sit around waiting for sponsors or students. They went out and nurtured them, working so hard in a couple of cases that it led to nervous breakdowns and early deaths. Some pros even gave up for a while - Iwamoto becoming a coffee-farm worker in Brazil springs to mind, but quite a few joined the civil service or journalism, or whatever, so that go was effectively just their hobby. The Chinese players even had to put up with the Cultural Revolution, so the likes of Nie Weiping ended up being re-educated on farms with only a go board in their heads. The Koreans relied essentially on one man: Cho Nam-ch'eol.
I don't see even desultory attempts by western wannabe pros to emulate any of this admin/PR effort, or any strong personalities. While it may be too early to predict gloom or doom, it seems hard to predict any fireworks either.
Re: Next EGF Professionals
Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 2:33 am
by HermanHiddema
As expected, Shikshin took the second pro spot, defeating Andrii Kravets in the semis and Cornel Burzo in the final.
He played the last game under some time pressure, because apparently he had a plane to catch and could not afford to spend much time in byoyomi. Shikshin was ahead in the endgame when Burzo forgot to play a forcing move, lost a big group, and resigned.
Oh, and for those who care more about the clothes, here's the previous two pros (Lisy and Jabarin) at a match in Japan:
Re: Next EGF Professionals
Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 3:45 am
by DrStraw
HermanHiddema wrote:Oh, and for those who care more about the clothes, here's the previous two pros (Lisy and Jabarin) at a match in Japan:
I don't recall ever seeing a Japanese pro with his elbow on the table before.
Re: Next EGF Professionals
Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 3:51 am
by Uberdude
DrStraw wrote:HermanHiddema wrote:Oh, and for those who care more about the clothes, here's the previous two pros (Lisy and Jabarin) at a match in Japan:
I don't recall ever seeing a Japanese pro with his elbow on the table before.
Found one for you in 30 seconds of googling:
http://www.seattlego.org/wp-content/upl ... t-move.jpg
Re: Next EGF Professionals
Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 4:13 am
by DrStraw
Uberdude wrote:DrStraw wrote:HermanHiddema wrote:Oh, and for those who care more about the clothes, here's the previous two pros (Lisy and Jabarin) at a match in Japan:
I don't recall ever seeing a Japanese pro with his elbow on the table before.
Found one for you in 30 seconds of googling:
http://www.seattlego.org/wp-content/upl ... t-move.jpg
But that is clearly in the review stage. I was thinking about during play.
Re: Next EGF Professionals
Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 4:20 am
by John Fairbairn
I don't recall ever seeing a Japanese pro with his elbow on the table before.
3 points.
1. Special armrests are provided when playing on a floor board, so elbow leaning is expected.
2. Leaning on a table is usually not recommended for pros for a couple of reasons - it obscures the view of the game recorder and it impedes proper breathing. It has little to do with politeness. (but uberdude's image is not a good choice anyway).
3. (specially for Dr Straw, a Sakata fan) Stuart Dowsey used to like pointing out how Sakata would pick his toe nails during games. It adds a certain nuance to the foot sweep tesuji.
Clothing and personal appearance are not big issues during play in the pro world, but focusing your attention on the board at all times and sitting up straight are things you get brayed into you as an insei. Our current idol Sugiuchi Masao was regarded (gratefully) as such a martinet when he was an insei teacher. And recall the famous incident when young Kitani and Murashima were both given a loss because they were tired, poor things, and took a rest during an Oteai game. It's about attitude, not appearance.
Re: Next EGF Professionals
Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 4:30 am
by Uberdude
Ok, how about Blackie (Kin Seungjun 9p), Korean rather than Japanese. And what a suit!
Re: Next EGF Professionals
Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 6:38 am
by HermanHiddema
John Fairbairn wrote:What struck me instantly about this photo is how few of the players are looking at the board. In my experience that's not pro or insei behaviour.
John Fairbairn wrote:...focusing your attention on the board at all times...
Interestingly, as can be seen in honte's second set of photos, the semi-finalists (Shikshin, Surma, Pop and Kachanovskyi) are focussed on the board immediately (at 2-5 moves into the game).
Personally, I have the experience of playing a young Korean insei who did not focus on the board. Rather, he would study the position after my move for 5 seconds, then look at the ceiling and do all the calculation in his head. And his reading was frightfully accurate too
Re: Next EGF Professionals
Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 8:25 am
by jeromie
I think it bodes well for the new professionals that the two top seeds rose to the top in a double elimination tournament. There are a lot of opportunities for the supposedly better player to make a mistake that leads to elimination in that sort of tournament. That they won demonstrates mental fortitude as well as go strength.
It will be interesting to see what happens with the new European (and North American) professional go scene. I wish these young men the best, and I hope that they (or their successors) are able to make valuable contributions to the development of go worldwide.
Re: Next EGF Professionals
Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 9:06 am
by Elom
*Grabs Popcorn* okay, this is worth seeing
Uberdude wrote:How often will they make new pros, and 2 each time? Wasn't it just over half a year ago we got the first two? I worry making 2 per year (or more frequently) will mean we end up demeaning the title of professional too much with too weak players becoming ones (should be EGF 7ds not 6d IMO).
But well done Mateusz! He's a nice guy.
As far as I've heard, starting from next year, only one shin-shodan shall emerge every year.
Congratulations to Surma 新初段 and Shikishin 新初段! Go S^2
