Where does black play next?

[topazg]

So this whole idea of "shape" and making "proper shape": Is it the kinda thing, like learning to make life, that I'm supposed to learn, understand, get it under my belt and move on or is it more like attack and defense where I'll spend the rest of my life working on it?

Shape, learning to make life, attacking and defending ... yeah, all concepts you'll not get "under your belt" in a single lifetime, I promise

[Joelnelsonb]

So this whole idea of "shape" and making "proper shape": Is it the kinda thing, like learning to make life, that I'm supposed to learn, understand, get it under my belt and move on or is it more like attack and defense where I'll spend the rest of my life working on it?

Shape, learning to make life, attacking and defending ... yeah, all concepts you'll not get "under your belt" in a single lifetime, I promise

Lol. I just mean is it like learning what two eyes look like where it's like "oh, ok. got it" or is it a skill that slowly develops with your understanding of the game.

[Uberdude]

The c13 shape problem is this:

$$B
$$ | . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . .
$$ | . . a O . .
$$ | . . X O . .
$$ | . . . . . .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . .
$$ | . . a O . .
$$ | . . X O . .
$$ | . . . . . .[/go]

White can push at a and black can't block so he gets separated. So black needs to play a himself (or some other move like 2 spaces below that also fixes with some pros and cons) to connect.

The e5 shape is not quite so simple to extract, but is essentially:

$$W
$$ . X 2 . . .
$$ . X 1 3 . .
$$ O O X . . .
$$ . . X . W .
$$ O . X . . .
$$ . . . . . .
$$ -----------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ . X 2 . . .
$$ . X 1 3 . .
$$ O O X . . .
$$ . . X . W .
$$ O . X . . .
$$ . . . . . .
$$ -----------[/go]

Because is atari due to the shape above after black white can get it and and then the marked stone makes it hard for the 3 stones to escape. They aren't connected anymore. It's all about connecting.

[topazg]

I think the difficulty is the application more than anything. I wasn't trying to be facetious or flippant, honest! It's mostly that the basic idea of attacking "kill something, or make it uncomfortable enough that I get enough strength to kill something else or make lots of points (or possibly repeat the first step until it ends up in one of those two)" is straightforward, but the application isn't. The idea of good shape, e.g. "make it easy not to be uncomfortably pushed around, or struggle to make eyes, or find it harder to connect than I should" is simple - the application isn't ... etc etc

Everything just sort of has new wonders to unfold and marvel at no matter where you reach in the game.

Have you considered why Bill thought E6 was locally less of a good idea than E5 btw?

[Joelnelsonb]

Well he said that in reference to white's move so the reason would be that E-05 cuts off the bottom group after extending.

[topazg]

Yeah, I got ninja'd by Uberdude a bit - I'm assuming you thought that E6 did the same thing though, hence the suggestion of it ?

[Joelnelsonb]

I meant to suggest E-06 as black's move. If I suggested otherwise than I misspoke. Btw, as far as Bki's suggestion: why would white 4 not be at white 6?

[topazg]

I meant to suggest E-06 as black's move. If I suggested otherwise than I misspoke. Btw, as far as Bki's suggestion: why would white 4 not be at white 6?

Yes, you did, but Bill suggested E5 -- did you mean you meant to suggest E5? If not, can you see why E6 doesn't split as effectively? How do you expect Black to respond to E6?

RE: bki's suggestion, yeah, @ does look better.

[Bill Spight]

So this whole idea of "shape" and making "proper shape": Is it the kinda thing, like learning to make life, that I'm supposed to learn, understand, get it under my belt and move on or is it more like attack and defense where I'll spend the rest of my life working on it?

Pros hardly ever make mistakes with shape. Strong amateurs sometimes do. There are 4 dan amateurs who often make shape mistakes, IMX.