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Re: What rank is this tsumego?
Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2022 11:14 am
by Cyan
Knotwilg wrote:Gérard TAILLE wrote:
See previous answers. Your 4 is thé wrong hane. Then a diagonal decent nu white threatens to connect or make a 2nd eye
Even with 4 at kosumi white dies.
I've submitted 8 variations of solutions in this link, hope it answers everyone's questions about how black can kill.
https://www.101weiqi.com/auditquestion/318584/
Re: What rank is this tsumego?
Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2022 7:44 am
by CDavis7M
I've started to realize something doing tsumego, especially ones from real games.
There's the rank at which someone can solve the tsumego problem itself.
Then there's the rank at which someone would recognize the situation in game and play corrected, which is about 3 ranks higher than solving.
And then there's the rank at which someone would have played moves to setup the tsumego. Which is what? 6 ranks higher than solving? Of course, ranks are relative so this is just for illustration.
And then there's the rank at which the player reads several variations of which the tsumego and many others are options and they play moves to only incidentally setup the tsumego as a threat but of course neither they nor their opponent will ever let the game to that position.
Of course, in most games you just try something out and stumble into a position. It would be nice if the Go-Fairy could just whisper whether seki or ko count as a correct answer.
Re: What rank is this tsumego?
Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2022 3:05 am
by Gérard TAILLE
CDavis7M wrote:I've started to realize something doing tsumego, especially ones from real games.
There's the rank at which someone can solve the tsumego problem itself.
Then there's the rank at which someone would recognize the situation in game and play corrected, which is about 3 ranks higher than solving.
And then there's the rank at which someone would have played moves to setup the tsumego. Which is what? 6 ranks higher than solving? Of course, ranks are relative so this is just for illustration.
And then there's the rank at which the player reads several variations of which the tsumego and many others are options and they play moves to only incidentally setup the tsumego as a threat but of course neither they nor their opponent will ever let the game to that position.
Of course, in most games you just try something out and stumble into a position. It would be nice if the Go-Fairy could just whisper whether seki or ko count as a correct answer.
I agree with you, depending of your rank, you will have a different appreciation of a move.
$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X X O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O . . O O X . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . , . . O X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X X X . O . O X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O O X . . 1 . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X X O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O . . O O X . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . , . . O X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X X X . O . O X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O O X . . 1 . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Surely the move
above is the only move to kill white stones and as such
is a good move.
$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X X O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O . . O O X . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . , . . O X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X X X . O . O X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O O X . 2 X . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . a . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X X O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O . . O O X . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . , . . O X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X X X . O . O X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O O X . 2 X . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . a . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
What about the answer
? For a strong player no doubt it is a very bad move. First of all white loses a ko threat and secondly when black answers with "a" white suffers locally a great loss. Each time white adds a move this move is probably a bad move isn't it?
Re: What rank is this tsumego?
Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2022 4:07 am
by Elom0
Gérard TAILLE wrote:CDavis7M wrote:I've started to realize something doing tsumego, especially ones from real games.
There's the rank at which someone can solve the tsumego problem itself.
Then there's the rank at which someone would recognize the situation in game and play corrected, which is about 3 ranks higher than solving.
And then there's the rank at which someone would have played moves to setup the tsumego. Which is what? 6 ranks higher than solving? Of course, ranks are relative so this is just for illustration.
And then there's the rank at which the player reads several variations of which the tsumego and many others are options and they play moves to only incidentally setup the tsumego as a threat but of course neither they nor their opponent will ever let the game to that position.
Of course, in most games you just try something out and stumble into a position. It would be nice if the Go-Fairy could just whisper whether seki or ko count as a correct answer.
I agree with you, depending of your rank, you will have a different appreciation of a move.
$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X X O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O . . O O X . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . , . . O X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X X X . O . O X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O O X . . 1 . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X X O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O . . O O X . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . , . . O X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X X X . O . O X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O O X . . 1 . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Surely the move
above is the only move to kill white stones and as such
is a good move.
$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X X O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O . . O O X . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . , . . O X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X X X . O . O X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O O X . 2 X . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . a . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X X O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O . . O O X . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . , . . O X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X X X . O . O X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O O X . 2 X . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . a . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
What about the answer
? For a strong player no doubt it is a very bad move. First of all white loses a ko threat and secondly when black answers with "a" white suffers locally a great loss. Each time white adds a move this move is probably a bad move isn't it?
$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X X O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O . . O O X . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . , . . O X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X X X . O . O X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O O X . . X . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X X O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O . . O O X . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . , . . O X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X X X . O . O X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O O X . . X . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Also, what happens if white plays the knights move?
Re: What rank is this tsumego?
Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2022 9:24 am
by Gérard TAILLE
Elom0 wrote:
$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X X O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O . . O O X . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . , . . O X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X X X . O . O X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O O X . . X . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X X O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O . . O O X . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . , . . O X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X X X . O . O X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O O X . . X . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Also, what happens if white plays the knights move?
$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X X O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O . . O O X . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . , . . O X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X X X . O . O X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O O X . . X . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . 3 2 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X X O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O . . O O X . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . , . . O X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X X X . O . O X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O O X . . X . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . 3 2 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
What is your idea? If white is unconditionnaly dead then this exchange
is in practice very bad for white.