Black to kill:
What rank is this tsumego?
-
Cyan
- Dies in gote
- Posts: 34
- Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2017 4:12 pm
- Rank: 3k
- GD Posts: 0
- Has thanked: 2 times
- Been thanked: 5 times
What rank is this tsumego?
I've been practising a lot of tsumego but missed this kill in a game. Wondering if I should be able to solve it (meaning I should learn to recognize tsumego in live games) or if it's above my rank?
Black to kill:
Black to kill:
Last edited by Cyan on Thu Apr 07, 2022 5:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-
kvasir
- Lives in sente
- Posts: 1040
- Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2012 12:29 am
- Rank: panda 5 dan
- GD Posts: 0
- IGS: kvasir
- Has thanked: 25 times
- Been thanked: 187 times
Re: What rank is this tsumego?
Maybe it is a hard one?
I tend to divide tsumego into categories depending on if it is a "learning" problem or a "reading" problem. "Learning" problem is something you study, possibly memorize and try to learn something new. "Reading" problem is one that practices reading, because it is tricky or the solution is unexpected. My approach with "reading" problems is to never look at the solution, I'll try but I won't check if it is correct because I don't see that as the point of the exercise. Also if I am not sure I have the solution this is also a practical answer. As you improve some "reading" problems might change categories and become something to study.
If I am not missing something then I'd call this a "reading" problem and wouldn't try to memorize it.
I said I wouldn't look at the solution but that doesn't mean I wouldn't talk about it with anyone
Are you sure black can kill?
I tend to divide tsumego into categories depending on if it is a "learning" problem or a "reading" problem. "Learning" problem is something you study, possibly memorize and try to learn something new. "Reading" problem is one that practices reading, because it is tricky or the solution is unexpected. My approach with "reading" problems is to never look at the solution, I'll try but I won't check if it is correct because I don't see that as the point of the exercise. Also if I am not sure I have the solution this is also a practical answer. As you improve some "reading" problems might change categories and become something to study.
If I am not missing something then I'd call this a "reading" problem and wouldn't try to memorize it.
I said I wouldn't look at the solution but that doesn't mean I wouldn't talk about it with anyone
Are you sure black can kill?
-
Cyan
- Dies in gote
- Posts: 34
- Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2017 4:12 pm
- Rank: 3k
- GD Posts: 0
- Has thanked: 2 times
- Been thanked: 5 times
Re: What rank is this tsumego?
Seems like this is a hard reading problem, plus the time pressure and the whole board position in a live game makes it even harder. I think black can kill in this way, is this correct?
-
Cyan
- Dies in gote
- Posts: 34
- Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2017 4:12 pm
- Rank: 3k
- GD Posts: 0
- Has thanked: 2 times
- Been thanked: 5 times
Re: What rank is this tsumego?
Thanks, I want to put this problem on a tsumego site, but I have no experience in making tsumego. How should I simplify this position into a tsumego?
-
Cassandra
- Lives in sente
- Posts: 1326
- Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 11:33 am
- Rank: German 1 Kyu
- GD Posts: 0
- Has thanked: 14 times
- Been thanked: 153 times
Re: What rank is this tsumego?
It will make a decisive difference if you encounter this problem presented as a tsume-go, or in a real game.Cyan wrote:I've been practising a lot of tsumego but missed this kill in a game. Wondering if I should be able to solve it (meaning I should learn to recognize tsumego in live games) or if it's above my rank?
If it is a tsume-go, you will be sure that there is a way for Black to kill White's group.
In my experience, this knowledge alone makes it easier in many cases to find the solution.
In a real game, there will still exist some kind of uncertainty, if you did not encounter the key-shapes and key-tesuji of this formation (probably often enough) before.
Thus said, this problem might have been above your rank in a real game, and below (or suitable for) your rank as a genuine tsume-go.
The really most difficult Go problem ever: https://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)
Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)
-
Cassandra
- Lives in sente
- Posts: 1326
- Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 11:33 am
- Rank: German 1 Kyu
- GD Posts: 0
- Has thanked: 14 times
- Been thanked: 153 times
Re: What rank is this tsumego?
This positiion is fine as a tsume-go, there is NO need for simplification.Cyan wrote:Thanks, I want to put this problem on a tsumego site, but I have no experience in making tsumego. How should I simplify this position into a tsumego?
But it would be necessary to identify the key points of shape, as well as some other relevant properties of the stones / strings involved.
Tomorrow at the latest, I will post here an example of my thinking in this regard.
Now it is very late in the evening and I still have to walk my two dogs (one of them is called HONTE
).The really most difficult Go problem ever: https://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)
Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)
-
Cyan
- Dies in gote
- Posts: 34
- Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2017 4:12 pm
- Rank: 3k
- GD Posts: 0
- Has thanked: 2 times
- Been thanked: 5 times
Re: What rank is this tsumego?
I added this tsumego to 101weiqi, please take a look and give it a rating!
https://www.101weiqi.com/auditquestion/318584/
https://www.101weiqi.com/auditquestion/318584/
-
Knotwilg
- Oza
- Posts: 2432
- Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 6:53 am
- Rank: KGS 2d OGS 1d Fox 4d
- GD Posts: 0
- KGS: Artevelde
- OGS: Knotwilg
- Online playing schedule: UTC 18:00 - 22:00
- Location: Ghent, Belgium
- Has thanked: 360 times
- Been thanked: 1021 times
- Contact:
Re: What rank is this tsumego?
I'm 2d. In a game I would surely go for the kill with 
as in the solution but I would probably screw up at 
because I'd try to falsify the upper eye next, giving White an opportunity to force life at the bottom.
In my practice blog here you will see my latest post featuring a fairly easy tesuji problem which however wasn't trivial for me in the real game. As someone else pointed out, knowing there *is* something, is probably worth a couple of ranks already.
as in the solution but I would probably screw up at because I'd try to falsify the upper eye next, giving White an opportunity to force life at the bottom.In my practice blog here you will see my latest post featuring a fairly easy tesuji problem which however wasn't trivial for me in the real game. As someone else pointed out, knowing there *is* something, is probably worth a couple of ranks already.
Re: What rank is this tsumego?
It's really easy. At most like a 5k 101weiqi problem? No offense but the posters finding it difficult probably have poor life and death skills
-
Cassandra
- Lives in sente
- Posts: 1326
- Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 11:33 am
- Rank: German 1 Kyu
- GD Posts: 0
- Has thanked: 14 times
- Been thanked: 153 times
Re: What rank is this tsumego?
The space is very open, so the shape analysis is not that trivial.
If it was White's turn ...
White's group has two sure eyes.
A nakade shape inside White's formation.
Two cutting points.
Two White strings with only three liberties.
This makes one think about another nakade shape.
White's string at the right has four liberties.
But which a Black stone at the shadowed point would have, too.
A potential false eye at the top.
is played at the apparent vital point of the problem.
Trial continuation at the right.
White got only one eye at the bottom.
At the top, there is still the potential false eye.
But
makes miai of A and B.
Therefore, Black must pre-empt White's life-creating move by playing a diagonal move to himself.
White is dead.
If it was White's turn ...
White's group has two sure eyes.
A nakade shape inside White's formation.
Two cutting points.
Two White strings with only three liberties.
This makes one think about another nakade shape.
White's string at the right has four liberties.
But which a Black stone at the shadowed point would have, too.
A potential false eye at the top.
is played at the apparent vital point of the problem.Trial continuation at the right.
White got only one eye at the bottom.
At the top, there is still the potential false eye.
But
makes miai of A and B.Therefore, Black must pre-empt White's life-creating move by playing a diagonal move to
himself.White is dead.
The really most difficult Go problem ever: https://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)
Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)
-
Gérard TAILLE
- Gosei
- Posts: 1346
- Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2020 2:47 am
- Rank: 1d
- GD Posts: 0
- Has thanked: 21 times
- Been thanked: 57 times
Re: What rank is this tsumego?
I do not see where you can play a wrong move:Knotwilg wrote:I'm 2d. In a game I would surely go for the kill with
The logical sequence seems the following and with your suggestion to falsify the upper eye the move
kills white doesn't it?BTW in the following position the moves a, b, c or d seem killing moves but in practice the move "a" is certainly the best one for a yose point of view.
-
Knotwilg
- Oza
- Posts: 2432
- Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 6:53 am
- Rank: KGS 2d OGS 1d Fox 4d
- GD Posts: 0
- KGS: Artevelde
- OGS: Knotwilg
- Online playing schedule: UTC 18:00 - 22:00
- Location: Ghent, Belgium
- Has thanked: 360 times
- Been thanked: 1021 times
- Contact:
Re: What rank is this tsumego?
[quote="Gérard TAILLE"][/quote]
See previous answers. Your 4 is thé wrong hane. Then a diagonal decent nu white threatens to connect or make a 2nd eye
See previous answers. Your 4 is thé wrong hane. Then a diagonal decent nu white threatens to connect or make a 2nd eye
-
Cassandra
- Lives in sente
- Posts: 1326
- Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 11:33 am
- Rank: German 1 Kyu
- GD Posts: 0
- Has thanked: 14 times
- Been thanked: 153 times
Re: What rank is this tsumego?
Knotwilg was fasterGérard TAILLE wrote:I do not see where you can play a wrong move:Knotwilg wrote:I'm 2d. In a game I would surely go for the kill with
The logical sequence seems the following and with your suggestion to falsify the upper eye the move
must be played from the inside, NOT from the outside.The really most difficult Go problem ever: https://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)
Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)
-
Gérard TAILLE
- Gosei
- Posts: 1346
- Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2020 2:47 am
- Rank: 1d
- GD Posts: 0
- Has thanked: 21 times
- Been thanked: 57 times
Re: What rank is this tsumego?
When white plays hane on the outside white threatens to make an eye at "a" and the answerCassandra wrote:Knotwilg was fasterGérard TAILLE wrote:I do not see where you can play a wrong move:Knotwilg wrote:I'm 2d. In a game I would surely go for the kill with
The logical sequence seems the following and with your suggestion to falsify the upper eye the move
is natural.OC, similarly, when white plays hane on the inside white threatens to make an eye at "b" and the answer
is still natural.BTW, instead of
it may be better for black to answer at "c".I still do not see how white can live.