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Re: modern orthodoxy in the opening

Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 7:13 am
by Kirby
HermanHiddema wrote:...

Depends on your definition of serious. With events made for TV, where the audience demands to be amused constantly, they enter byoyomi almost immediately. The probability of errors increases greatly, so the playing level simply drops.

So if your definition of serious games includes "high level of play", then those events cannot be taken as seriously. If your definition is only "the players are strong and do their utmost to win", then any pro event is serious.


There are many Korean events with longer time limits, so this discussion is kind of moot, anyway. It can be seen in other posts on this forum that some members here have "exaggerated" about the time limits used in Korean tournaments.

Ignoring that, though, it seems like I am in a minority in thinking that "high level of play" should also include time limits as a factor of the game state.

Being able to calculate quickly and accurately is an admirable skill, in my opinion. I think that such play can be taken seriously, and can in some cases provide more insight into "go skill" than a slower game could.

If we assume that longer time limits leads to more optimal play (which is still simply an assumption), you can still gain insight toward a player's thought process behind making a move, even if a particular sequence was not optimal.

I do not think that "strength" equates to "brute force". A brute force algorithm on a computer could work on solving a go position. It might take years to finish.

There's nothing special about that type of an algorithm, though. You could probably make that type of an algorithm with a couple of weeks of programming experience. When faced by the additional problem of having time as a constraint, you start to see some real magic happen.

And I'm still sure that modern pros would be happy to hear that their games are "crapshoots"... :-p

Re: modern orthodoxy in the opening

Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 7:49 am
by emeraldemon
http://senseis.xmp.net/?ProfessionalTournamentTimeLimits

(can't resist :D )

So I guess the next thing to do would be try this same analysis for 1865, and see how much more or less variation there is.

Re: modern orthodoxy in the opening

Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 8:22 am
by HermanHiddema
Kirby wrote:Ignoring that, though, it seems like I am in a minority in thinking that "high level of play" should also include time limits as a factor of the game state.


I do think that being able to handle sort time limits is an important skill on the part of the player. Where I am talking about "high level of play", I am talking about the resulting game, not about the skill of the players. IMO, the more errors a game contains, the lower the level of play of the game.

Re: modern orthodoxy in the opening

Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 9:22 am
by Kirby
HermanHiddema wrote:...

I do think that being able to handle sort time limits is an important skill on the part of the player. Where I am talking about "high level of play", I am talking about the resulting game, not about the skill of the players. IMO, the more errors a game contains, the lower the level of play of the game.


For a given player, it is possible that more time will allow you to weed out more errors (though, this is also not proven; The Art of Learning (http://www.amazon.com/Art-Learning-Jour ... 0743277457), for example, suggests that the author's best plays as a chess player were those that he spent a medium amount of time on. When he spent too much time on a given move, he often played poorly.).

But it seems a bit biased to claim that go events in Korea "can't be taken seriously". It's feasible that a game played at a go event in Korea is of a "higher level of play" - having fewer errors - than a go event played under slower time settings. With go events in Korea still having multiple hours for time limits, it is irrational to throw out the quality of the game simply because of the time limit. There's still a lot of time that was put into the game, and it is quite feasible that certain games played under such time limits can have fewer errors than those with greater time limits.

I could also say that games played by Japanese players "can't be taken seriously" because some of the said players have lost to Korean players in international tournaments. I won't say this, though, because I think that it's insulting to the players to say something like that.

But thinking only of the time controls:
1.) There isn't a huge difference in time between Korean pro events and Japanese pro events. Have you watched baduk TV? On a number of programs, the players still spend a considerable amount of time making moves. Sure, there are fast events as well, but this doesn't mean that games from Korean pros "can't be taken seriously".

2.) It has not been shown that, overall, games played under faster time settings in Korea contain fewer errors than games played under slower time settings in Japan.

Re: modern orthodoxy in the opening

Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 9:49 am
by illluck
Hehe, I wrote about 500 words to try to argue against Herman and John, but ended up having to trash it because there were so many arguments (how level of play cannot be determined by number of errors because other factors such as length of game and complexity will tend to overshadow the effect of half a stone or so at pro levels, number of errors is not measurable, games with less detectable errors are not necessarily more fun to watch, reviews of Japanese top games such as title matches demonstrate a comparable number of errors, performance of Japanese players against Koreans and Chinese do not suggest that they will be better players even given long time limits, etc...) that I can't end up choosing one over the others (I guess in this case, the best defense is no defense?) :p And that's not even to get started on amateurs talking about how pro games cannot be taken seriously?

In the end, I make this post just so that my previous attempt is not entirely wasted (it's clear that I'm the type who values consistency over rationality) :p

Re: modern orthodoxy in the opening

Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 10:29 am
by Laman
oops, i made my post in an attempt to explain 'Mickey Mouse' term used by John Fairbairn. i think my explanation worked and everyone could understand what was the meaning behind the term. if i imagined that one short part of it will be quoted and directly opposed five times, i would be twice as careful with my formulation (and i am always pretty careful) or not post at all and let it to the asked one.

i have no intention to convince you that Korean go can't be taken seriously because that is not what i think. i think Koreans are damn strong players and play damn good go, but i still believe they would play even better if they had longer time for thinking.

if we speak about tournaments with really short time allowances (say with less than hour main time), it surely needs strong player to succeed and it can be fun to watch the pro sweating, making mistakes and still playing great (though i do not find it so much fun) but unless i can watch it in real time, which i can't, it only produces mediocre to low-quality kifus, which i am not interested in

for me, one question would matter in this discussion: can weaker Japanese player with longer time limit beat stronger Korean with shorter time? i believe Japanese would win and therefore i study Japanese games (if any) and agree with longer limits being more desirable

so much for me

Re: modern orthodoxy in the opening

Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 11:07 am
by hyperpape
Kirby wrote:For a given player, it is possible that more time will allow you to weed out more errors (though, this is also not proven; The Art of Learning (http://www.amazon.com/Art-Learning-Jour ... 0743277457), for example, suggests that the author's best plays as a chess player were those that he spent a medium amount of time on. When he spent too much time on a given move, he often played poorly.).
John isn't entirely speculating--note how frequently he mentions commentaries on the older games (even in Japan, time limits are substantially lower now).

Also, I believe I have heard even Korean pros say that the current time limits are too fast.

Edit: God only knows why I wrote "entirely". Misplaced weasel words will be the death of me.

Re: modern orthodoxy in the opening

Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 11:55 am
by Kirby
Laman wrote:oops, i made my post in an attempt to explain 'Mickey Mouse' term used by John Fairbairn. i think my explanation worked and everyone could understand what was the meaning behind the term. if i imagined that one short part of it will be quoted and directly opposed five times, i would be twice as careful with my formulation (and i am always pretty careful) or not post at all and let it to the asked one.

i have no intention to convince you that Korean go can't be taken seriously because that is not what i think. i think Koreans are damn strong players and play damn good go, but i still believe they would play even better if they had longer time for thinking.

if we speak about tournaments with really short time allowances (say with less than hour main time), it surely needs strong player to succeed and it can be fun to watch the pro sweating, making mistakes and still playing great (though i do not find it so much fun) but unless i can watch it in real time, which i can't, it only produces mediocre to low-quality kifus, which i am not interested in

for me, one question would matter in this discussion: can weaker Japanese player with longer time limit beat stronger Korean with shorter time? i believe Japanese would win and therefore i study Japanese games (if any) and agree with longer limits being more desirable

so much for me


I think I pretty much agree with your viewpoint (though, the answer to your last question is not clear to me, so I can't really put much forth on that). And also, again, I don't think that the difference between time settings is as huge as people make it out to be.

And when it comes to studying pro games, I doubt that many people study the amount of time that went into the game. I mean, assuming that the senseis library link from earlier is accurate, if you happen to study an "NHK Cup" game, for example, you are studying a game that had much lower time settings than a game from a "Kuksu" tournament.

So you can get into grabbing the games with the maximum time limit that you can find, if you'd like. But it's really speculation as to whether it has fewer mistakes.

The only concrete evidence that you can really have are commentaries and game results... And even those are subject to question.

Besides, when you study a game, I believe that you should do it analytically, anyway. Try to figure out reasoning behind the moves played. You can do this with any game record that you have, and I don't think that your time is wasted, or that the study material is not valuable.

One thing that I do disagree with, though, is the idea that these pro games are in any way "mediocre" or "low-quality" kifus. Even if a game record is played under very fast time settings, it is quite bold for us to say that a particular professional game is of low quality.

We can't even tell if the 5 hour game records that we have are truly of better quality. At least I can't. And I'd be very surprised if anyone in this discussion could with consistent accuracy. The way some people talk here, it sounds like these kifus are like KGS blitz games. And I definitely think that this is not the case.

Re: modern orthodoxy in the opening

Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 12:52 pm
by TMark
Kirby, you have to learn to differenciate between comments about Korean professionals, for whom we all have the greatest admiration, and comments about the trend for televised "Mickey Mouse" tournaments, which just happen to occur mostly in Korea. The sponsors pay for these because they want the televised excitement, but that excitement does not necessarily translate into games which will be studied for 100 years or more. I should know, because I have been transcribing games for the past 18 years both ancient and modern. Anyone who has been here for more than 5 minutes knows that you will respond to any perceived criticism of things Korean, usually with an over-reaction. Please, the next time, take a second look at the comments; you will not see anything critical of the professionals, only that they are being treated badly by the sponsors and are not able to produce the best that they can.

Best wishes.

Re: modern orthodoxy in the opening

Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 12:55 pm
by John Fairbairn
Kirby said
There are many Korean events with longer time limits


No, there aren't. Unless you want to be silly and argue about how long is a piece of string. If you take the year 2000 as a benchmark, Japan had 31 events with time limits of 8, 5 or 4 hours ("event" means preliminaries in some cases as they sometimes had different limits).

They had 4 events of 1,2 or 3 hours. They had 10 events of 10 minutes or less. Common sense tells us that 3 hours or less should therefore be considered "short". Korea also more or less matched that sort of distribution at that time.

The current situation is that Korea has a maximum of 3 hours. But only three events open to men have this limit. This is not "many" and as we've just seen it's on the short side anyway. Eleven events have even shorter limits. Five of them (if three is "many", that's "very many") are Mickey Mouse 10 minute affairs or less. Even as (supposedly) prestigious an event as a world championship (the BC Card Cup) has only 1.5 hours. Most amateur events here seem to allow at least as much time as that. Many Korean pros - admittedly the older ones but big names like Cho Hun-hyeon - have denounced the shortening of time limits (for reasons that include them being a crapshoot), but they are spitting in the wind.

Now go back to 2000 again. At that time, Japan was certainly not inferior to Korea or China in international results. They may not have been markedly superior any longer, but they weren't inferior. The most distinctive characteristic of games at that time was that they mostly had long time limits in all countries. In other words, there was a level playing field. I repeat, under totally level conditions, Japanese was not inferior.

Now one way a team can improve its winning percentage is if the goalposts are changed at one end. Far from this being a deliberate tactic by the Koreans or the Chinese, it could be said that the Japanese shot themselves in the foot. It was the Fujitsu that first made 3 hours the norm for international events. This, of course, was driven by mostly economic considerations of bringing foreign players in from long distances. Any sponsor in any country is governed by the same constraints. But the success and growth of international go attracted television and the internet. Given also the special conditions in Korea and China, where sponsorship was not as entrenched among newspapers as in Japan and was dicey anyway, it was inevitable that the pro organisations there would be attracted by offers from television, or from sponsors who hoped to get on television. This led, rapidly, to a shortening of time limits in domestic events as well.

This produced the current situation where Korean players and Chinese players play at more or less the same time limits in both international and domestic events. They are playing under constant conditions all year round. But when a Japanese player goes to an international event, he is used to much longer time limits. For him it is not a level playing field.

In fact it is not a level playing field within Korea. You may think of some of the older players as dinosaur relics who should move over, but Yi Ch'ang-ho was brought up under the older time limits and achieved most of his success under them. Even when very young he regularly used most of his time allowance. The modern short games are probably a strain for him, and I for one am not convinced that Yi Se-tol, who came up under the new system and developed his style accordingly, is necessarily stronger than Ch'ang-ho.

It is not just a question of less time to think in each game. As I have suggested above, the shorter time limits have brought with them a change of style that is best suited to shorter time limits. Japanese players especially can hardly be expected to change styles in the space of a single international event, and it would be catastrophic for their main domestic careers to change styles permanently. Also, there are now no events (none!) where Chinese and Korean players get to play the top Japanese at 4 hours or more. We have to conclude, therefore, that lack of Japanese success in international events, wounding though it is to national pride, is not really a fair measure of relative strengths.

We cannot conclude, of course, that Japanese players are stronger just because they play more slowly. It's genuinely hard to say who is best. However, I am rather fond of relying on professional opinion. What I observe, for example, is that the Chinese magazine Weiqi Tiandi will often give 10 pages (i.e. about 10% of its entire space) to a commentary on a Japanese title match. Furthermore, the commentary will generally be done by a 9-dan or an 8-dan, whereas the Chinese title games often get assigned to 4-dans and 5-dans. In other words, the Chinese respect Japanese go. That tells me more than the result of the latest Samsung Cup. The fact that some western players disrespect Japanese go also tells me something about them, and it's not in their favour.

One thing the Japanese can claim is to have the strongest go-playing prime minister in the world. But, somewhat to my disappointment, they still crave "parity" with the Koreans and Chinese. Recognising that time limits are almost certainly the root of the apparent difference, they have reduced limits drastically. There are now just 15 events at 4 hours or more, and a whopping 25 at 3 hours. There are 12 with less, but only 4 (for men) at the 10-minute level or less. Until players also change their style successfully, we are not likely to see actual international success. And in the interim, if the Koreans continue the downward trend below even 3 hours in international events (Samsung 2h, Nongshim 1h - only the LG has 3h and that only in the late stages), that means the goalposts the Japanese are kicking into are narrowing all the time. They will probably need to find the equivalent of Harry Potter playing Malfoy at quidditch.

Re: modern orthodoxy in the opening

Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 8:45 pm
by hyperpape
John Fairbairn wrote:Now go back to 2000 again. At that time, Japan was certainly not inferior to Korea or China in international results. They may not have been markedly superior any longer, but they weren't inferior. The most distinctive characteristic of games at that time was that they mostly had long time limits in all countries. In other words, there was a level playing field. I repeat, under totally level conditions, Japanese was not inferior.
Are you thinking of titles here, or general competitiveness? From 1995-2000, the Koreans are way ahead in titles, but my impression had always been that the Japanese still were quite competitive with the Korean players at that time, if you looked at who advanced in to late rounds of the tournaments.

Re: modern orthodoxy in the opening

Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 12:32 am
by Mef
hyperpape wrote:
John Fairbairn wrote:Now go back to 2000 again. At that time, Japan was certainly not inferior to Korea or China in international results. They may not have been markedly superior any longer, but they weren't inferior. The most distinctive characteristic of games at that time was that they mostly had long time limits in all countries. In other words, there was a level playing field. I repeat, under totally level conditions, Japanese was not inferior.
Are you thinking of titles here, or general competitiveness? From 1995-2000, the Koreans are way ahead in titles, but my impression had always been that the Japanese still were quite competitive with the Korean players at that time, if you looked at who advanced in to late rounds of the tournaments.



Well given that whatever I thought I would be posting after reading the first post of this thread is now either irrelevant, already said better or likely wrong....I guess I'll just do quick tallying here off of gobase...

1990-2000 internationally Japan had...

...1 finalist and champion in 4 LG cups
...6 finalists and 4 champions in 11 Fujitsu cups
...2 finalists in 3 Ing cups
...1 finalist and champion in 2 Chun-lan cups

so in 20 major event finals they have 10 representatives, 25% of the total spots...sounds pretty competitive to me...

Re: modern orthodoxy in the opening

Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 2:44 am
by snorri
emeraldemon wrote:http://senseis.xmp.net/?ProfessionalTournamentTimeLimits

(can't resist :D )

So I guess the next thing to do would be try this same analysis for 1865, and see how much more or less variation there is.


I could do something like this, except I have only 3 games from 1865. Generally, to get enough games from Edo period, I'd have to include multiple years to get any reasonable statistics. I'd need some help selecting a reasonable range, but if it's too long, it may not be a fair comparison because one can assume changes in style and fashion within a long enough period of time.

10 modern years vs. 10 classical years might be fairer, but I'd still be wary of any conclusions drawn from it. (Actually, there is value in trying to keep the sample size similar in both sets as well.) I'd be willing to try if rational ranges can be suggested, however.

Re: modern orthodoxy in the opening

Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 7:22 am
by hyperpape
Mef: there's a stark before and after, at least as titles are concerned. From 1990-1995 the Japanese lead, in 1995-2000 they fall behind. Still, the Japanese win a lot of titles in that period, unlike 2000 onwards.

So John could mean that 20% of the titles is parity (against 60+ for Korea), or he could be thinking more broadly than just titles. That was my question.

Re: modern orthodoxy in the opening

Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 4:59 am
by Kirby
TMark wrote:...Anyone who has been here for more than 5 minutes knows that you will respond to any perceived criticism of things Korean, usually with an over-reaction...


It is an over-reaction in your opinion. I have made the same arguments more than once (also, I respond to a ton of things on this forum, not just things related to Korea). If we are going to go into the realm of making personal comments, anyone that's been here for more than 5 minutes can also tell that John's comments, for example, are never positive when talking about Korean go. From talking about their "Mickey Mouse time limits" to how "Batoo is not something they should be able to have credit for" to posts along the line of "Korean amateurs aren't as strong as they say they are", I have yet to see a really positive comment on the matter. *

So you may try to claim that I "over-react" to these types of posts, but I don't think it's fair to have only one side of the argument.

*If you'd really like for me to dig up examples, I'll take the time to do so, but I don't think that these topics are unfamiliar to you.