How to defend against a monkey jump?

[hyperpape]

@daniel It fits Bill's pattern.

$$B Monkey jump
$$ -----------------
$$ . . . 3 . 1 2 . .
$$ . . X . . 4 . . .
$$ . . X O . O O O O
$$ . . X O O O . . .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B Monkey jump
$$ -----------------
$$ . . . 3 . 1 2 . .
$$ . . X . . 4 . . .
$$ . . X O . O O O O
$$ . . X O O O . . .[/go]

[jts]

Wow. There are more things under tengen than I had dreamt...

So is it the general case that the move on the first line gains a sente follow-up by threatening a snapback? Or are there other ways for the best move to gain a point?

Wait, I missed what hyperpape/daniel were saying. So in that case the problem is that the move on the second line doesn't prevent him from crawling farther in.

[daniel_the_smith]

@daniel It fits Bill's pattern.

$$B Monkey jump
$$ -----------------
$$ . . . 3 . 1 2 . .
$$ . . X . . 4 . . .
$$ . . X O . O O O O
$$ . . X O O O . . .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B Monkey jump
$$ -----------------
$$ . . . 3 . 1 2 . .
$$ . . X . . 4 . . .
$$ . . X O . O O O O
$$ . . X O O O . . .[/go]

My example has a more obvious reason why the first line move is better:

$$B Monkey jump
$$ -----------------
$$ . . . . . 1 3 . .
$$ . . X . . 2 . . .
$$ . . X O . O O O O
$$ . . X O O O . . .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B Monkey jump
$$ -----------------
$$ . . . . . 1 3 . .
$$ . . X . . 2 . . .
$$ . . X O . O O O O
$$ . . X O O O . . .[/go]

[prokofiev]

This looks like a good example, depending on what the situation is on the right.

$$W Monkey jump
$$ -----------------
$$ . . a 2 6 B 3 . .
$$ . . X . . 1 7 . .
$$ . . X O O O . O O
$$ . . X X . O O O .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W Monkey jump
$$ -----------------
$$ . . a 2 6 B 3 . .
$$ . . X . . 1 7 . .
$$ . . X O O O . O O
$$ . . X X . O O O .[/go]

If , then and . (Sorry about that. ) If the situation is such that later is sente, it leaves ½ point for Black at "a".

$$W Monkey jump
$$ -----------------
$$ . . a 2 6 B 1 . .
$$ . . X 5 . . 3 . .
$$ . . X O O O . O O
$$ . . X X . O O O .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W Monkey jump
$$ -----------------
$$ . . a 2 6 B 1 . .
$$ . . X 5 . . 3 . .
$$ . . X O O O . O O
$$ . . X X . O O O .[/go]

If , then is sente (we assume). Later is sente, threatening a throw in at 6. There is no point at "a".

Nice. This example also shows the full point difference between MW's 'a' and 'c':

$$W
$$ -----------------
$$ . . 6 1 4 B 5 . .
$$ . . X 2 3 7 . . .
$$ . . X O O O . O O
$$ . . X X . O O O .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ -----------------
$$ . . 6 1 4 B 5 . .
$$ . . X 2 3 7 . . .
$$ . . X O O O . O O
$$ . . X X . O O O .[/go]

(Assuming white needs 7.)

Later:

$$Bm10
$$ -------------------
$$ . . X 1 X X O . . .
$$ . . X X O O 2 . . .
$$ . . X O O O . O . .
$$ . . X X . O O O O O

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bm10
$$ -------------------
$$ . . X 1 X X O . . .
$$ . . X X O O 2 . . .
$$ . . X O O O . O . .
$$ . . X X . O O O O O[/go]

Black has a point from the captured stone.

[Magicwand]

$$B Monkey jump
$$ -----------------
$$ . . . c . B a . .
$$ . . X . . b . . .
$$ . . X O O O . O O
$$ . . X X . . O O .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B Monkey jump
$$ -----------------
$$ . . . c . B a . .
$$ . . X . . b . . .
$$ . . X O O O . O O
$$ . . X X . . O O .[/go]

a and b usually have 1/2 point difference.
b and c usually have 1/2 point difference.

Can someone give an example of when a would be better than b?

$$B Monkey jump
$$ -----------------
$$ . . x 7 3 1 4 . .
$$ . . X 5 6 2 8 . .
$$ . . X O O O . O O
$$ . . X X . . O O .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B Monkey jump
$$ -----------------
$$ . . x 7 3 1 4 . .
$$ . . X 5 6 2 8 . .
$$ . . X O O O . O O
$$ . . X X . . O O .[/go]

$$B Monkey jump
$$ -----------------
$$ . . x 3 . 1 2 . .
$$ . . X . . . 4 . .
$$ . . X O O O . O O
$$ . . X X . . O O .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B Monkey jump
$$ -----------------
$$ . . x 3 . 1 2 . .
$$ . . X . . . 4 . .
$$ . . X O O O . O O
$$ . . X X . . O O .[/go]

point x is one point endgame for both black and white.
both have 50/50 rights to one point endgame. so i said they are .5 endgame.
but as i said before ... situation might say otherwise but above situation is true.

[shapenaji]

Magicwand, In this:

$$B Monkey jump
$$ -----------------
$$ . . x 3 . 1 2 . .
$$ . . X a . . 4 . .
$$ . . X O O O . O O
$$ . . X X . . O O .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B Monkey jump
$$ -----------------
$$ . . x 3 . 1 2 . .
$$ . . X a . . 4 . .
$$ . . X O O O . O O
$$ . . X X . . O O .[/go]

a is sente for white, so they don't both have rights to it, white will get "a"

[Magicwand]

Magicwand, In this:

$$B Monkey jump
$$ -----------------
$$ . . x 3 . 1 2 . .
$$ . . X a . . 4 . .
$$ . . X O O O . O O
$$ . . X X . . O O .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B Monkey jump
$$ -----------------
$$ . . x 3 . 1 2 . .
$$ . . X a . . 4 . .
$$ . . X O O O . O O
$$ . . X X . . O O .[/go]

a is sente for white, so they don't both have rights to it, white will get "a"

thank you... i had a feeling something was not right.. i couldnt figure what that was..

then below is correct?

$$B Monkey jump
$$ -----------------
$$ . . x . 3 1 2 . .
$$ . . X . . . 4 . .
$$ . . X O O O . O O
$$ . . X X . . O O .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B Monkey jump
$$ -----------------
$$ . . x . 3 1 2 . .
$$ . . X . . . 4 . .
$$ . . X O O O . O O
$$ . . X X . . O O .[/go]

edit:
then difference is full 1 point?

[Bill Spight]

$$B Monkey jump
$$ -----------------
$$ . . . c . B a . .
$$ . . X . . b . . .
$$ . . X O O O . O O
$$ . . X X . . O O .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B Monkey jump
$$ -----------------
$$ . . . c . B a . .
$$ . . X . . b . . .
$$ . . X O O O . O O
$$ . . X X . . O O .[/go]

a and b usually have 1/2 point difference.
b and c usually have 1/2 point difference.

Can someone give an example of when a would be better than b?

$$B Monkey jump
$$ -----------------
$$ . . x 7 3 1 4 . .
$$ . . X 5 6 2 8 . .
$$ . . X O O O . O O
$$ . . X X . . O O .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B Monkey jump
$$ -----------------
$$ . . x 7 3 1 4 . .
$$ . . X 5 6 2 8 . .
$$ . . X O O O . O O
$$ . . X X . . O O .[/go]

$$B Monkey jump
$$ -----------------
$$ . . x 3 . 1 2 . .
$$ . . X . . . 4 . .
$$ . . X O O O . O O
$$ . . X X . . O O .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B Monkey jump
$$ -----------------
$$ . . x 3 . 1 2 . .
$$ . . X . . . 4 . .
$$ . . X O O O . O O
$$ . . X X . . O O .[/go]

point x is one point endgame for both black and white.
both have 50/50 rights to one point endgame. so i said they are .5 endgame.
but as i said before ... situation might say otherwise but above situation is true.

Your play is right, but your count is wrong, as Shapenaji says. I have modified my previous post accordingly.

[Magicwand]

Your play is right, but your count is wrong, as Shapenaji says. I have modified my previous post accordingly.

thank you

i didnt sleep last nite so i think my mind is not clear.
i remember studying them 20 years ago...
since then i really didnt care about exact count..

[Uberdude]

Hwang In-seong 8d, one of the top players in Europe, recently beat a 4d on 5 stones at the "Go To Innovation 2011 Tournament" in Berlin. It included an absolutely beautiful sequence which punished the wrong answer to a monkey jump. He answered at Magicwand's b, when he should have played the safer c (or not ignored s5). The magic begins at move 180.

http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/download/file.php?id=1373

[Magicwand]

Hwang In-seong 8d, one of the top players in Europe, recently beat a 4d on 5 stones at the "Go To Innovation 2011 Tournament" in Berlin. It included an absolutely beautiful sequence which punished the wrong answer to a monkey jump. He answered at Magicwand's b, when he should have played the safer c (or not ignored s5). The magic begins at move 180.

i believe black would have lost the game even if he answer correctly. and both players knew already the result..

[karaklis]

Hwang In-seong 8d, one of the top players in Europe, recently beat a 4d on 5 stones at the "Go To Innovation 2011 Tournament" in Berlin.

Thanks for posting this high-quality high-handicap game. I was looking for something exactly like this to study.

[tapir]

Hwang In-seong 8d, one of the top players in Europe, recently beat a 4d on 5 stones at the "Go To Innovation 2011 Tournament" in Berlin. It included an absolutely beautiful sequence which punished the wrong answer to a monkey jump. He answered at Magicwand's b, when he should have played the safer c (or not ignored s5). The magic begins at move 180.

i believe black would have lost the game even if he answer correctly. and both players knew already the result..

Just saying: Go to Innovation uses the Hahn system. Losing the game is of minor importance, the point difference matters more.

[RobertJasiek]

the Hahn system. Losing the game is of minor importance, the point difference matters more.

Except that a too great point difference (this punishes the mega-killers!) is not rewarded and that there are steps of 10 points.

[balistic]

I really have a love hate relationship with the monkey jump lol