Life In 19x19

Sorry, that wasn't supposed to be me my 2 for White necessarily, so much as whether it created a bad forcing exchange in the context of a normal joseki- sort of pseudo tewari I guess.

Although:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . O . O X , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 2 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 7 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 8 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This looks rather good for Black to me. It's a simply huge corner. White has nice thickness, but a secured 5th line territory corner?!?, and the ability now to develop the lower right nicely? That said, I don't agree with your sequence that lead to this diagram, but even so, it doesn't feel like Black's been tricked.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X X , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If I understood you correctly, you mentioned that you didn't want to play something like this because it's too boring, even if it might be the best play (or at least P17 might be). To my untrained eye, this result from P17 doesn't feel good for white. Am I mis-evaluating the result of the exchange or did I read too much into a casual comment (and there is another reason you didn't play P17 (like it might be subpar for white))? I just wasn't sure if it was a board evaluation issue on my part. D16 looks awful lonely, with not alot of influence potential.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . a . X . . . X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . b . . . X X , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I don't think it's bad for White. I notice people often feel pressured to use a 4-4 stone in the opening for influence, but it's also a very flexible move. For instance, after the joseki, White can play 'a' to put some pressure on Black's group and threaten invasion, of which there are a good handful of variations worth studying found in many books. It also serves as an extension from the 4-4.

I can also choose to branch the other way and make the simple approach at 'c'. After all, it only takes 1 move to give support to the 4-4, and 'a' is an example of such a move that is certainly not slow at all. It is even better if Black plays the last move in the joseki at 'b', but also works fine where it is now.

To gain some more insight in how to handle a 4-4 that doesn't have nearby friends, try playing this opening from time to time, which of course has been played professionally more than sufficiently:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Thanks. That helps. I do think I fall into the camp of focusing on influence from the 4-4, and not necessarily it's flexibility or development speed.

That sequence is in no way inferior to either of the parties, been played over and over again by professionals. In recent times pro's often probe the upper left corner to see wich of the variations sol showed to choose. Other than that its 100% fine for both parties

This is a fairly easy decision.

It is easier than it ought to be. There are two common responses, 'a' and 'b':

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

I don't know 'a' very well. So, unless there is some particular reason for not choosing 'b', I'll play it.

The next several moves are forced.
White cannot let black play 'a', so white plays in the diagram below. I've heard that some chinese pros have been rehabilitating 'b', but I doubt that Araban will be up on that. If he is, it's fine with me, for it is far less pressure on black. ( The general idea behind white 'b' is to prevent 'e' by black and thus stabilize the right side for white. White does this when he wants to force black to play on the top. It is known to work if white has a stone around 'f'. ) It seems to be an inferior branch for white here.
After , is forced ( Black could play 'c' or 'd', but both of those compel one of white's groups to defend itself immediately. The main line with keeps white guessing. )

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . f . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . c . X , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . d 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . e . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

After , white has to choose which child he likes more.


He can protect on the side, like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c Move 5 can be at 'a'
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 5 . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . a . . X , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Or on the top like this.

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[go]$$c 'a' and 'b' are miai
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 4 . . O . . . b . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Any of these positions seen so far look good enough for black. So I don't have to play the attach joseki when I am not familiar with all of the branches.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Joaz says that his a and b are the two common responses:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . b . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

I'm fairly sure this isn't correct. The following are the responses in order of how common they are, as I know it:

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[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

A quick GoGod search shows that this is at least anecdotally correct, with pros playing:
- a, 1290 games
- b, 662 games
- c, 280 games

This search includes all games (not singling out modern games).

Make of this what you will, but b is a good simple option that I think would be bad to ignore. Joaz is playing a fighting variation without backup, whereas b might achieve the same thing more peacefully.

I believe that b has gone out of fashion these days, and a is considered to accomplish the same work as it does. I can't be 100% sure about that opinion though.

Some more dubiously useful database magic...

Games since 2000:
- a, 665
- b, 213
- c, 140

Games 2000-2006:
- a, 221
- b, 135
- c, 76


Games since 2006 (none this year):
- a, 515
- b, 121
- c, 79

So, again anecdotally, b might have declined slightly in popularity. This only makes c a little more popular though (if it's the case at all). I think things like 'pros say c accomplishes the same job better' may well be true, but it's difficult to take them at face value - they clearly haven't given up on b!

topazg wrote:Sorry, that wasn't supposed to be me my 2 for White necessarily, so much as whether it created a bad forcing exchange in the context of a normal joseki- sort of pseudo tewari I guess.

Although:

This looks rather good for Black to me. It's a simply huge corner. White has nice thickness, but a secured 5th line territory corner?!?, and the ability now to develop the lower right nicely? That said, I don't agree with your sequence that lead to this diagram, but even so, it doesn't feel like Black's been tricked.

White gets such huge thickness in sente... Even though black has around 35 points here, I think white is still good. Especially because black's 5-4 stone is kicked in the teeth really badly by this sequence... Something like the following might be expected, and there goes your beautiful lower right:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . O . O X , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

How about responding to the original move with the really clumsy looking kosumi? This looks OK for black, because the original pincer stone looks awkwardly placed:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 5 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . 8 X , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . 2 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

Or maybe white should crosscut? Black should be OK in this kind of fight I think:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 6 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . 5 X 7 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 8 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc Fighting ensues
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . X O X 4 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

I'm not afraid of this either:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . 6 . 2 X , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . 1 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

i am pretty sure that above is good for white. white has sente and aji left in the corner.

Is tenuki really out of the question? Should white follow up with a or b? And if so, how efficient is his shape? For sure, the black stone will still have quite some aji no matter how white plays here...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . b X , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 a . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Hmmm, you might be right... The more I look at it, the more I like tenuki-ing immediately.

Tenuki is definitely not a sensible option here.

What's wrong with the attachment at R17?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . c 5 . . 3 1 2 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . a a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . X , b . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Although can't extend as far as usual (is c possible for ?) this looks good to me since looks misplaced if black plays at a next to prevent a white moyo. This would of course be even better if black had b already.

I made a (rather lengthy) video for this move, but it has this very annoying high-pitch background sound behind it that I can't get rid of for some reason. After classes I will try to fix it, but if I can't then I'll edit this post with just text until I can fix it.

However, to kind of throw in an excerpt from the video, the reason I chose to play R13 instead of the more common Q14 is that with Q14, the "soft spot" or the "underbelly" of the right group at R12 is very annoying and works well for him given the global position (the location of a Black stone in the right corner is the big factor).

R13 allows me to settle the right group with the snap of a finger, but as compensation for Black it applies less pressure to his two stones at the top, so he isn't restricted to playing a move such as O15 anymore and can be more versatile. I think the pros outweight the cons for my case here, so that is why I chose the low move instead.

Regarding the difference between R14 and R13, I would say it's not as prevalent but nonetheless:

R13
Pros: Faster, More efficient
Cons: Thin
(Not to sound full of myself, but the move reminded me a bit of Cho Hunhyun's kind of play)


R12
Pros: Steady, Less weaknesses
Cons: Slower

I'll try to edit this post tonight, including either the fixed video or a more detailed writeup of what I discussed in my video.

edit: Too busy this weekend, something unexpected came up - I'll just try to transfer the information into the next video(s).