Thinking + Improvement

For lessons, as well as threads about specific moves, and anything else worth studying.
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Re: Thinking + Improvement

Post by RobertJasiek »

John Fairbairn wrote:the results of rational thought need to be treated with circumspection.


The results of those rational thoughts reflecting absolute truths need not be treated with circumspection. Only for the other results, doubts can be good.

There is therefore a case to be made that it is more fruitful to work with the brain as it is, to accept its foibles.


1) Concerning absolute truths: no.

2) Concerning conscious move decision: no. Better moves are better; intentionally allowing slightly weaker moves opposes that and corresponds to making blunders. One's go becomes, by experience, much stronger by always avoiding mistakes that one can avoid.

3) Except for (1) and (2), it is possible that it hardly matters whether one allows one's subconscious brain to work with the degree of inaccuracy it likes. Any mistakes made during learning can still in principle be filtered during move decision making. OTOH, the opposite is also possible: that training the brain with more correct learning leads to better results; the expectation would be: what is trained is what one gets.

Many thousands of those who have done that have reached a go grade much higher than yours,


If you want to refer to me as a comparison, then you should also add circumstances: a) I started at 20 (almost 21). b) I spent as much study on doing go research as on strength improvement study. c) I have suffered and still suffer very much from limited information input and information presented in forms not fitting my best learning styles well. d) I have not had good, regular, real world training environments for dan level players.

and in many cases in a rather short span of time.


Whilst (b) to (d) did not apply, I improved quickly (10k to 3d in 1.5 years).

As far as I can see, no-one using the 100% rational method has reached even high amateur standard,


Where "high" is what? "6d+" so that you ensure that my 5d is excluded?

As long as all preferring that method suffer from information presented in forms not fitting their best learning styles well, this only confirms sparsity of that kind of information.

may well have enjoyed much of their improvement from subconscious workings of the brain.


Even I do not deny that. What, by experience, I deny is your and Tami's suggestion that letting the brain work mostly on its own would be efficient. My experience is contrary: the better the quality of input information the faster improvement can be. Quality means that the results are already worked out and that the brain does not need to work out them by itself.

don't you believe in biology?


I believe in the experience I have made: the "biology" of my brain handles results (such as formulated in correct principles) very much more efficiently than working out them.
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Re: Thinking + Improvement

Post by John Fairbairn »

Robert:

Since amateur 8-dan grades are now routine, a high amateur dan is surely 7 or 8-dan, even 9-dan on the servers, and not 5-dan (or kgs 4-dan). And many pros and top amateurs have likewise found time to pursue other things such as an education or a job while studying go, or have started late or had impediments of their own.

What, by experience, I deny is your and Tami's suggestion that letting the brain work mostly on its own would be efficient.


As ever, you like to misrepresent the other side (this attitude is part of what spoils your credentials to be a serious researcher in my eyes). Neither of us has said that the brain should work mostly on its own. We have both said that very hard work by the person is necessary - just as much work as with your method. What we (or at least I) claim is that this work is best done in such a way that the brain is left to sort out for itself where and how all the bits of information supplied are sorted out. The brain appears to work by making associations and to have the ability to use those associations in a way that makes us efficient, even if we don't understand its method fully. Trying to make the brain work instead with lists or hierarchies or by formulating principles can actually interfere with the brain's normal work and so can be highly inefficient. Square pegs in round holes. I don't think either of us can prove or explain all of that, but our experience (which is at least as valid as yours, and maybe more so because it is shared with many others) is that the method of leaving the brain to do what it does best gives the best results in terms of numbers of 9-dans and high-dan amateurs.

I hasten to add that the order in which information is supplied to the brain, or its quality, can be optimised, but the brain should still be left to pigeon-hole everything, I gather, for best results. That optimisation still does not imply lists. It does seem to imply, most of all, much repetition, which helps the right associations to be made. Round pegs in round holes.
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Re: Thinking + Improvement

Post by RobertJasiek »

John Fairbairn wrote:Since amateur 8-dan grades are now routine,


How many are there? How many are 8d in the sense of winning at least ca. 2/3 against 7d of the strength seen in European tournaments? Japanese 8d having bought their certificate don't count. I know one 8d. Who else exists?

a high amateur dan is surely 7 or 8-dan,


According to your definition, I see.

even 9-dan on the servers, [...]
and not 5-dan (or kgs 4-dan).


Server ranks are a) incomparable from server to server, b) insecure and c) allow professionals. So referring to server 9d has very little meaning.

And many pros and top amateurs have likewise found time to pursue other things such as an education or a job while studying go,


Oh, for the sake of completeness, me too.

or have started late or had impediments of their own.


Many pros? Hear, hear. Please tell us details! The usual information given us so far has been: far over 90% of the pros started early during their childhood.

As ever, you like to misrepresent the other side


What about explaining your side better?

(this attitude is part of what spoils your credentials to be a serious researcher in my eyes).


I do not do the thing you try to do: a meta-discussion about your research credibility on the grounds of this non-research forum discussion.

Neither of us has said that the brain should work mostly on its own.


Thank you for the clarification of your opinion!

We have both said that very hard work by the person is necessary - just as much work as with your method.


And this "just as much work as with your method" is wrong. Depending on what is being studied, it is wrong by a factor between about 2 (for knowing which moves to read in a highly tactical problem with little scope for greater efficiency due to principles) and 10,000 (when knowing an easy, correct principle (such as for the gap between a wall and its extension) can replace study of 10,000 times as many examples).

What we (or at least I) claim is that this work is best done in such a way that the brain is left to sort out for itself where and how all the bits of information supplied are sorted out. The brain appears to work by making associations and to have the ability to use those associations in a way that makes us efficient, even if we don't understand its method fully. Trying to make the brain work instead with lists or hierarchies or by formulating principles can actually interfere with the brain's normal work and so can be highly inefficient


Wrong, see above.

I don't think either of us can prove or explain all of that,


My experience proves the opposite, see above.

but our experience (which is at least as valid as yours,


Reaching your 3d rank is relatively easy with the available literature and its contained principles. Become 5d and report your experience again!

and maybe more so because it is shared with many others) is that the method of leaving the brain to do what it does best gives the best results in terms of numbers of 9-dans and high-dan amateurs.


What is it that the brain does best? (IMX, applying already available refined knowledge!)

What is the experience shared with many others, especially of the 9p and 7d+?

That optimisation still does not imply lists.


Indeed. The "lists" are your invention to describe badly whatever I present as general knowledge. It is of little relevance whether something is listed or not. It matters whether it does present general knowledge.

much repetition, which helps the right associations to be made.


Very clearly presented knowledge is understood without the need for much repetition.
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Re: Thinking + Improvement

Post by John Fairbairn »

Robert:

Off the top of my head I can think of Hong Malk-eun Saem, Hu Yuqing, Fu Li, Bao Baixiang, Sun Yiguo, Hirata Hironori, Nakazono Seizo and Iwai Ryuichi as 8-dan amateurs in the various countries who have played in pro tournaments. Once again, your contemptuous allegation about Japanese people "buying" 8-dan diplomas says much about you. AFAIK 8-dan is not available for sale even in Japan, though there are a couple of honorary examples around. It is a grade given for winning major events. If you want a long list of amateurs above 6-dan, try looking through Chinese events such as the Wanbao Cup or Yellow River Cup, or the much more numerous Korean amateur events, but I'm not going to do your work for you.

Even if only 5% (a big under-estimate, I'm sure) of pros had a difficult time studying or started late, that is many. Again I'm not going to list them all - you can read the available literature as all good researchers should do - but as I've just written about them this week in the Shuei series I'll mention Hirose Heijiro (Iwamoto's teacher) who qualified as a pro in his twenties as he had a day job as a newspaper reporter and Ito Kotaro who managed to find time to fight in real wars and win a medal. Among modern players there are many who have combined pro-dom with university degrees and some who even practise a second profession (e.g. one is a lawyer, another a computer scientist, etc etc)

My experience is observation of what results have been achieved in the go world as a whole over several hundred years. I therefore repeat: my experience tells me the traditional method works; my experience tells me your method has yet to be proven. You have also yet to demonstrate why your brain is apparently so different from the brains described elsewhere.

Simple assertions by you that something is wrong mean nothing to me, even with a number attached. What comes over to me over and over again is that you are starting from a belief that something must so because logic tells you so and yet the only "proof" you adduce is your own, and only your own, experience. I start with the observable and apparently reproducible results of very many people (and thus very many experiences). I personally can't explain these results, but a brief foray into cognitive sciences literature tells me that some people can, and that their theories are much better grounded in biology than yours.

As I have said before, your attempts to show the superiority of your method can be commendable, and I will be one of the first to cheer if they work, but the proof of the pudding is in the eating.
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Re: Thinking + Improvement

Post by RobertJasiek »

John Fairbairn wrote:Off the top of my head I can think of Hong Malk-eun Saem, Hu Yuqing, Fu Li, Bao Baixiang, Sun Yiguo, Hirata Hironori, Nakazono Seizo and Iwai Ryuichi as 8-dan amateurs in the various countries who have played in pro tournaments.


Thanks!

Once again, your contemptuous allegation about Japanese people "buying" 8-dan diplomas says much about you.


1) Rather it says something about what I have read in go forum discussions.

2) Currently you are about the only possible source of better information on the topic. Being provocative is the most probable way to motivate you to reveal more history / current state information to me.

though there are a couple of honorary examples around.


Such is bad enough.

It is a grade given for winning major events.


I.e., it is not a grade expressing regularly beating 7d opponents.

I'm not going to do your work for you.


Back in anti-Robert-mode again? Nobody expects you to WORK to answer questions. Forums are for voluntary discussion. If you know something, then you might share it - not because it becomes work but because you want to share.

you can read the available literature


I can't because I do not know the related languages, but you know that.

as all good researchers should do


A researcher is not good or bad defined by the number of foreign languages he knows. A researcher's quality is given by the quality of his findings.

There are exceptions: history, linguistics etc. if the study topic is related to countries with foreign languages. As a historian, you have a different view.

- but as I've just written about them this week in the Shuei series


The series only available in a proprietary file format?

I'll mention Hirose Heijiro (Iwamoto's teacher) who qualified as a pro in his twenties as he had a day job as a newspaper reporter and Ito Kotaro who managed to find time to fight in real wars and win a medal. Among modern players there are many who have combined pro-dom with university degrees and some who even practise a second profession (e.g. one is a lawyer, another a computer scientist, etc etc)


Having some other activity is insufficient information. To some extent, one can have other activities. However, one cannot be, e.g., a full-time researcher while studying go for improving. There are also limits for hard work per day. E.g., I cannot work 7+h per day for writing go books and then spend more time for serious go improvement study on the same day. I can study / play go for up to 16h per day if I do not do anything else, but research or writing books are mentally more exhausting activities than go improvement study.

Now I wonder whether among the people you mention there would be some with greater mental stanima, who could do say 5h hard job I (say, laywer), 5h hard job II (say, programmer) and 5h go improvement study of the hard work kind (solving problems) per day?

My experience is observation of what results have been achieved in the go world as a whole over several hundred years. I therefore repeat: my experience tells me the traditional method works; my experience tells me your method has yet to be proven.


The traditional method works in an environment suitable for it to work (teachers and fellow inseis available easily) for people for whom it works (those learning well by the method).

There is also counter-evidence: Among the highly praised English books there are mainly those existing already when there were relatively few books and every book could spread well. Among those, the most praised books include Attack & Defense, Strategic Concepts, Tesuji (Davies), Lessons in the Fundamentals, Invincible, Graded Go Problems. The last two are special cases (for years, only quality game collection; only suitable problem collection for near-beginners). The other four books share something in common that distinguishes them from other early available English books: they give generalised advice such as principles or types (of tesujis). The kind of advice that I like so much because it has made me stronger quickly and that everybody likes.

You have also yet to demonstrate why your brain is apparently so different from the brains described elsewhere.


I do not know if my brain is different. My thinking appears to be more methodical and my analytical skill of reading my own thinking appeas to be more efficient than an average person's thinking.

Simple assertions by you


You can also view the complement: where is the teaching of the contents that a) I found after studying 10,000 examples and b) by people said to have worked out the result by such or similar hard work? I have never seen any related teaching. Have you? The only related "teaching" is your "Do the hard work! It is the efficient way! That Robert can teach the same by stating a principle and providing just a few examples for it does not count!".

The simple assertions by me are accompanied by simple principles. The hard work proponents fail to provide the related teaching.

I start with the observable and apparently reproducible results of very many people (and thus very many experiences).


State their advice for the gap between a wall and its extension! And no, do not state the ridiculous, too often false proverb "wall n high, extension n+1", which is good enough only to keep 5k at 5k level.

I personally can't explain these results, but a brief foray into cognitive sciences literature tells me that some people can, and that their theories are much better grounded in biology than yours.


Where is their go theory advice for us? If they can explain, then they must also be able to apply what they can explain, mustn't they?;)

As I have said before, your attempts to show the superiority of your method can be commendable, and I will be one of the first to cheer if they work.


Where "work" means "producing countless 7d+"?;)
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Re: Thinking + Improvement

Post by Tami »

Don`t you think we should all just stop here and agree to differ?

Let each of us think what he or she likes and say what he or she likes. If one party sees a discussion more like a battle in which their view must prevail, even it the only way to get in the last word is to outlast the other, then let`s just leave them to it. For me, at any rate, I only want to share ideas, knowledge and experiences with others. I learn a lot by reading what others have to say, and it is a pleasure.

Nobody knows all the truths about the human brain and its workings. I think it would do Robert a great deal of good to read about Memory Consolidation on wikipedia and elsewhere, but if he is determined to stick to his own concept of mind, then let him.

Yes, it can be irritating when somebody just declares your view is "wrong" or trumpets their own theories as "correct" or "mighty", but, so what?

I`ll continue to share here and continue to learn from others. It would be gratifying if Robert would be a little more humble and more open to what others say, but ultimately, it doesn`t matter.

Two little things that I would like to add:

1) A principle is only a guideline, it is not a law. If in fact Robert is trying to find Laws of Go, then all I can say is "Good luck!".

2) It's disingenuous to dismiss analogies that don`t support your view simply because they are analogies. Yes, go is different from speaking a second language or playing the guitar, but not so different that comparisons cannot be useful or meaningful. Playing the guitar does involve a physical component, but it also involves comparable mental processes to go, namely, pattern recognition, principles (!) and exceptions, memory, reading, shapes, precognition and planning, creativity, etc.

3) It`s not cool to pull rank. There's always somebody higher up than you (unless you happen to be Lee Sedol or Gu Li, in which case it`s debatable).

4) It`s even uncooler to be disparaging about much stronger players than yourself. You don`t get even an honorary 8d certificate without showing very good reasons for deserving it. Again, 9d on KGS means something alright - it means you`re a lot more skilful than a 4d on KGS.
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Re: Thinking + Improvement

Post by daal »

RobertJasiek wrote:
John Fairbairn wrote:
As I have said before, your attempts to show the superiority of your method can be commendable, and I will be one of the first to cheer if they work.


Where "work" means "producing countless 7d+"?;)


And how would you define it?

What I sometimes wonder is if the reason you are so convinced of the validity of your approach is that it works for you. The question is: is it truly enough for someone else to get at least equally strong by being spoon-fed your well-thought-out principles. You say that reading about the principle (plus the examples you provide) is a more efficient way of learning than whatever it is that many others do without the help of good go literature. Have you considered the possibility that the reason that the use of such principles works for you is that you have spent such an extraordinary amount of time and energy thinking about them and figuring them out for yourself whilst preparing and writing your books?

I don't doubt that your idea of applying your principles in the correct hierarchical order and confirming your findings is a good way for you or a computer to make go decisions, but who knows whether there is anyone else capable of approaching the game in the same manner, and even assuming there is, the question remains whether this would indeed be a more efficient way to improve. What would a reader really have to do in order to apply your ideas. In some of your comments you suggest that a good principle makes repetition superfluous. The fact that you don't include problems in your books supports this position -yet how much repetition did you need?

Recently you gave Tami the advice to put some stones on the board in order to better understand the concept of n-alive. Apparently just reading about the idea is not enough.
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Re: Thinking + Improvement

Post by RobertJasiek »

Tami wrote:(meta-discussion skipped)

1) A principle is only a guideline, it is not a law.


Your third saying of this does not make it any more correct. There are two types of principles:

a) stating absolute truth and being always correct

b) guideline (usually with high likelihood of correctness far above 50%, unlike proverbs with close to 50%)

If in fact Robert is trying to find Laws of Go, then all I can say is "Good luck!".


Truths are not revealed by luck but by go theory insight or research skill.

It's disingenuous to dismiss analogies that don`t support your view simply because they are analogies. Yes, go is different from speaking a second language or playing the guitar, but not so different that comparisons cannot be useful or meaningful. Playing the guitar does involve a physical component, but it also involves comparable mental processes to go, namely, pattern recognition, principles (!) and exceptions, memory, reading, shapes, precognition and planning, creativity, etc.


The cute analogy reference does what you just do: state the aspects that are applicable to both fields.

9d on KGS means something alright - it means you`re a lot more skilful than a 4d on KGS.


No. KGS 9d shows that on average one can expect the player to be stronger than a KGS 4d. There have also been KGS 9d that are 3d in the real world.

(More skillful on KGS does not equate more skillful in explaining go theory.)

***

Another note on N-alive: You know what alive is. The N adds a degree to describe how little or much something is alive.
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Re: Thinking + Improvement

Post by RobertJasiek »

daal wrote:how would you define it?


My teaching methods "work" for somebody if one or several of these points happen:

1) He follows my methods only lightly and improves slightly or enhances his knowledge to enable the ground for better improvement later.

2) He studies my methods seriously, applies them regularly and improves a lot.

3) He improves due to those methods suitable for his strength, later reads the book again for the advanced contents, then improves again.

4) He would need significantly more time to acquire a skill by alternative teaching methods.

Note that usually improvement requires acquiring knowledge and playing games and reviewing one's games also to see if the acquired knowledge is applied consistently.

What I sometimes wonder is if the reason you are so convinced of the validity of your approach is that it works for you.


There are several reasons why I am so convinced:

1) They work for me or would have worked for me if I had gotten such knowledge as a weaker player.

2) Similar contents in other books by other authors works for many others. The major difference in my books thus far is that I teach more contents. IMO, more knowledge helps more. I am aware that there are readers who do not cope well with the greater density because they read the books as if they had an only ordinary amount of knowledge. IMO, slower or repeated reading of my books can help also those readers. It is, however, every reader's choice how much of the contents presented in a book he actually bothers to understand. For those readers insisting on low density, I am actually not convinced that my methods work. I cannot force a reader to absorb all the knowledge needed for a topic to reach 5d level (or, in case of a beginner's book, to reach 9k level).

3) From my playing experience, I know which knowledge I need during playing. Very much of that knowledge is not available in other books (or sometimes other English books) but is available only verbally or apparently even never taught anywhere. AFA my books discuss a topic, they do convey also such knowledge. I am convinced that available explicit knowledge is better for improving than not explicitly available knowledge.

4) I compare knowledge presented elsewhere with knowledge presented in my books and find that much of the latter has a better or even much better quality. I research specifically for finding and creating greater quality (or, for (3), new things). I am convinced that higher quality is better than lower quality. (Tami: humility is wrong when it contradicts facts. Easy example: a joseki dictionary stating every joseki's stone difference is better than one not stating it.)

is it truly enough for someone else to get at least equally strong by being spoon-fed your well-thought-out principles.


No, because
- he must also apply the "spoon-fed" knowledge in his then (self-)reviewed games,
- my books so far do not cover all topics of go theory yet,
- some skills require (also) different things than learning principles, e.g., reading skill.

Have you considered the possibility that the reason that the use of such principles works for you is that you have spent such an extraordinary amount of time and energy thinking about them and figuring them out for yourself whilst preparing and writing your books?


I have considered and rejected the thought because very roughly 65% is desperate searching for good knowledge still hidden in the dust, 5% requires the kind of thinking you describe, 30% is dull typing / editing effort.

who knows whether there is anyone else capable of approaching the game in the same manner,


Everybody enjoys Attack & Defense, Strategic Concepts and Tesuji (Davies), i.e., books with a similar approach to knowledge, except that they do not state principles prominently in bold font and have less density.

whether this would indeed be a more efficient way to improve.


Everybody is welcome to report such. But... improving alone is not directly related to acquired knowledge. Some improving quickly by other methods then tend to have knowledge gaps. For further improving, they still need the knowledge they overlooked thus far. (I had the same experience: as 3d, I had to collect the knowledge I missed while improving "too" quickly.)

What would a reader really have to do in order to apply your ideas.


As my books tend to have knowledge for a range of levels, the reader must start with the knowledge he can already understand and postpone the advanced knowledge until later. (E.g., in Capturing Races 1, he can postpone semeai classes 3 to 6.)

To apply knowledge, first of all, the reader must play games and so give himself the chance to apply the knowledge. Very easy, but some go "players" seem to enjoy just reading and have almost stopped to play much regularly. Check if you have applied the knowledge by reviewing your own games.

Recall the ideas. Forgotton knowledge cannot be applied! If necessary, learn explicitly. Learn while understanding. If you don't understand a joseki (eh, some knowledge), then it is hard to remember. If you don't understand, then study the knowledge by going through examples, if necessary, look for more examples on your own.

Start with the most important knowledge. Leave the more specific, rarer principles for later if you cannot recall all at once.

Never forget the global context of verification by reading and embedding by positional judgement.

The fact that you don't include problems in your books supports this position -yet how much repetition did you need?


My books vary WRT to numbers of examples or problems. A reader needs as much repetition until he understands and recalls easily. If necessary, use other sources for more examples. If there are none, don't be shy but ask.

Recently you gave Tami the advice to put some stones on the board in order to better understand the concept of n-alive. Apparently just reading about the idea is not enough.


Tami does not appear to be a principle-only player and she does not (yet) want to read Joseki 2 Strategy with the relevant examples. Nevertheless, for those not understanding from reading only the definition, the very basic examples can be very enlightning.

Anyway, examples are not evil. What is evil is nothing but examples, or even unsorted random examples:)
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Re: Thinking + Improvement

Post by Tami »

I am looking at your sample material.

Why do we need the concept of "stone difference"? Do you really need to say a joseki is S=2 to know that a tenuki joseki where Black plays two more moves than White is going to be locally favourable for Black? Shouldn`t it be obvious?

Is there really any point in having "influence stone difference"? What use is a heuristic for evaluating thickness that does not consider whole-board position?

Again, if a group is 2-alive (N-alive), then what exactly does this tell us? Does it mean you can play tenuki twice before needing to defend? But so what?

Your explanations of joseki choices in pro games seem fairly conventional, and they look to be worthwhile, but there`s nothing about them that suggests a higher quality than similar explanatory comments made in other go books.

I think your books look quite good, but certainly no better than anything else that I have read. I agree on the need to evaluate joseki, but I don`t think any of the Jasiekian terminology that I`ve so far seen actually tells us anything original. You simply give fancy names to things that either don`t need them or could easily be described in other ways.

To be fair, I have only seen samples, and perhaps there is much more to your work than this post implies. But if you`re going to be critical of other people`s books while using only limited information about what they contain, while boasting of the superior quality of your own work, then you deserve to be given the same treatment.

All the above is not to say you`re not good at teaching go and it is not to deny that people can learn from your books. It`s only to note that I doubt very much that your work is any better than that of other authors. I have decided against purchasing because I can learn the crucial things more easily from MyCom books and others, but I`m sure from what I`ve seen that your target audience would get acceptable value for money from your books.
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Re: Thinking + Improvement

Post by RobertJasiek »

Tami wrote:Why do we need the concept of "stone difference"?


Because the stone difference is the major measure indicating whether a sequence's result should be about equal, should be favourable for a particular player or should be very clearly favourable for a particular player.

Do you really need to say a joseki is S=2 to know that a tenuki joseki where Black plays two more moves than White is going to be locally favourable for Black? Shouldn`t it be obvious?


A joseki learner does not find it obvious at all! An experienced player will easily identify a result that should have the stone difference 2, but will still have some difficulty to distinguish stone differences 0 from 1. Knowing what stone difference a pattern should have does not need to be the same as what the actual stone difference is. Determining the stone difference then can reveal hamete, trick play or other unduely favourable result.

(Stone difference is also a basic input for the territory and influence ratio explained in the book. Stone difference is also relevant outside josekis for efficiency considerations, and a relevant information for tewari.)

Is there really any point in having "influence stone difference"?


1) For josekis: it is the easiest, fastest determined comparable measure of influence; it becomes very useful in the book's new theory.

2) In the middle game: it is extremely useful for determining center domination or other superior influence on a moyo or global scale.

What use is a heuristic for evaluating thickness that does not consider whole-board position?


(Influence stone difference measures also influence stones, not only thickness.)

For the purpose (1), influence stone difference can be determined either for an idealising case of having only a joseki shape in a corner (then the joseki territory / influence ration theory is applicable) or in a more global scale (but then the specific local joseki evaluation theory is not applicable).

For other purposes such as (2), the scale of consideration can be chosen, e.g., as the whole board.

So, by restricting the scope of scale, specific tools are enabled. If one wants to know other things (e.g., strategic context in adjacent corners or applicability of strategic choices available for a joseki of a particular functional type such as 'quick settling'), one would then choose a different scale.

Again, if a group is 2-alive (N-alive), then what exactly does this tell us?


It tells us, to start with the definition, that its defender can pass (or play unrelated elsewhere) twice before having to start his local defense play in the alternating sequence of attack started by the opponent.

As a consequence (and if connection is similar), the group is very thick. I.e., one can drive opposing running groups to it without easily having to worry about the own group's (wall's) life. The group is also extra-safe from ko threats: the opponent needs to make 2 threats before the player has to react.

Does it mean you can play tenuki twice before needing to defend?


Yes.

But so what?


Be happy! You have a thick group!

Your explanations of joseki choices in pro games seem fairly conventional, and they look to be worthwhile, but there`s nothing about them that suggests a higher quality than similar explanatory comments made in other go books.


If you consider only the pro games and my comments on them, yes. The higher quality WRT to choices is in a) the statement of all the major (strategic) choices made in the joseki variation diagrams (where every other dictionary mentions only a few occasionally or none at all) and b) the functional classification in chapter 2.

I think your books look quite good, but certainly no better than anything else that I have read.


Have you seen other joseki dictionaries (to keep things simple, let us for the moment stick to Vol. 3) offering

- a functional joseki classification
- a value type classification
- a generally applicable evaluation theory
- stone difference, territory and influence assessed for each joseki
- all major strategic choices stated for all variations?

I have seen no other dictionary with at least either of these features.

I agree on the need to evaluate joseki, but I don`t think any of the Jasiekian terminology that I`ve so far seen actually tells us anything original. You simply give fancy names to things that either don`t need them or could easily be described in other ways.


Oh, if I wanted to reply to this, we would get dozens of follow-up threads:)

then you deserve to be given the same treatment.


I love this treatment! May discussion live forever!
RobertJasiek
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Re: Thinking + Improvement

Post by RobertJasiek »

Tami wrote:I don`t think any of the Jasiekian terminology that I`ve so far seen actually tells us anything original. You simply give fancy names to things that either don`t need them or could easily be described in other ways.


(Now I have a bit of time for a few hints on this.)

FANCY?

Sometimes the names I use for terms are fancy. E.g., I have introduced the name '(putting) helping stones in front of a wall' for a move meaning with that purpose. It would certainly be more convenient if there were one word to describe the same and convey the same meaning. I could not find a shorter name for that purpose. However, the move type does exist and is relevant. A really fancy name would be: 'move of type 127'. I prefer telling names.

Usually, the names I use for terms are not fancy but straightforward. E.g., 'empty net' describes a net that is empty. Also 'N-connected' is straightforward but new. Why is it straightforward? It informs that something is connected and that there is the degree N. Of course, one could also write 'connected of degree N'. But why would one want to speak so inefficiently? We also write '20°C' and do not (regularly) write '20 degrees of Celsius'.

OTHER WAYS?

There are always other ways of describing something, and some of them are easy. E.g., instead of saying 'stone difference', one can also say 'difference of played black and white stones'; instead of saying 'territory count', one can also say 'difference of black and white territories'; instead of 'score', one can also say 'difference of black and white scores' etc.

There are two advantages of short(er) terms:
- they are shorter and therefore more convenient,
- it is easier to always use the same phrase for a term consistently and thereby be aware a) of it being a term and not just an arbitrary phrase and b) of exactly which term is being used instead of confusing apples and oranges.

In everyday language, we use nouns to enable ourselves to develop advanced thoughts about topics expressed by nouns. In go theory, we use terms to recall advanced knowledge already associated with the terms (or to develop additional knowledge).

SUPERFLUOUS NAMES?

There are countless of superfluous go terms: dog shape, horse shape, elephant shape, sagari etc. I prefer not to use them, but to use only such terms that are relevant. That you call part of the latter superfluous means that you have potential for acquiring new knowledge. If you refuse that knowledge, then, of course, you can also forgo new relevant terms.

I sometimes invent new names or use names suggested earlier by others to describe something that has - in English - Japanese names. E.g., you could say that 'net' was superfluous because there is 'geta'. IMO, terms should, whenever possible, have words already expressing a good part of the meaning. In English, 'net' is much more informative than 'geta'. There are other names which probably you dislike more. E.g., 'thick extension' instead of 'nobi'. This, however, is only half of the story. In English (without any extra fluent knowledge of a Japanese speaker, for whom possibly more information is contained), nobi does not specify whether it is thick or thin, alive or dead. The term I want to use (for a specific frequent kind of thick shape moves) must guarantee the 'thick' characteristic and exclude the 'thin' (or 'weak') alternative. Therefore, the extra word 'thick' in the term 'thick extension' is necessary. If we still used the Japanese word, to express the same, it would have to be called 'thick nobi'. While certainly this is a valid alternative name, the 'nobi' part conveys no meaning to a naive English speaker - contrarily, 'extension' conveys good information about the move of type 'thick extension'. (One could argue about number of syllabies, but English has its short and its longer words; we do not stop using the longer words just because are longer.)

NOTHING ORIGINAL?

You have noticed just how plainly easy my terms are:) They often are so easy that one can wonder whether one has just learnt something new. I want to make understanding easy, therefore I prefer, whenever possible, easy or even natural names for terms.

You read, e.g.(!), 'influence stone difference' and possibly understand immediately 'the difference of (numbers of Black's and White's) stones with (significant) influence'. This is, once you read it, so obvious that you wonder whether you have learnt anything new at all, and you complain: "It is nothing original!" I have never seen before my, what I think is an, invention anywhere any mentioning of the concept 'influence stone difference' under whichever name and never seen before any diagram conveying the idea implicitly. Have you? If you have not, then why do you claim that I would not have invented anything original (and given the concept a name)? AFAIK, it is new because it did not exist before I invented it. It is original because its invention required great creativity after many years of instead using weaker, much uglier concepts or methods (such as counting ill-defined empty intersections directly in front of walls).

Can you even appreciate how great the originality is to have found something simple and elegant?
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