The impenetrable wall at 6 kyu

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MagicMagor
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Re: The impenetrable wall at 6 kyu

Post by MagicMagor »

Instead of a full game review i will comment on two of your comments.

:w10:
huh? I didn't see this coming. From now on I intended to respond to invasions high in order to separate from the "premade" escape route and also to put pressure on the tengen stone.

I think this is bad reasoning. First of all the correct way to handle an invasion is to look at the specific position and then make decision on how to get the most profit out of it. Sometimes that means blocking the escape route to the center but sometimes it means letting the invasion escape to secure surrounding territory while your opponent has to play dame moves to escape.
Second if you block an invasions escape route your opponent will try to life locally. Unless that is not possible this means an exchange of territory for influence. You give up your territory to the small invasion group to get outside influence in exchange. However with whites tengen stone using any outside influence becomes difficult. You can't expect to make a moyo with influence geared towards the center and attacking the tengen stone itself is also really hard as it has 4 sides to escape too.
So capping every invasion by white to avoid its escape in the center is only going to work for you if you can kill these invasions and that is something that is nearly impossible unless your opponent tries unreasonable invasions.

:b11:
I didn't want that huge white moyo to form, thus I diverged from the joseki. I thought it'd be ok, since white omitted the last step too.

Joseki moves are joseki for a reason. While omitting joseki moves to tenuki can be good in most cases we amateurs do it for the wrong reasons. For one the tengen move from white doesn't need an immediate answer it is gote. So you are free to choos where to play next. And that means you are free to gain profit from whites decision to omitt a joseki move. I think attaching at C15 would be the first move for this - that is what whites joseki move defends against. I'm not certain on the continuation but i am sure you can get more profit out of this position than the actual game.

:w14: stepped willingly into an existing pincer so I decided to defend the other side. Playing high because of the tengen stone and also to put more pressure on the invading stone.

Playing the high extension may be playable but you don't put a lot of pressure on the invading stone. Since white plays into an existing pincer this means you have the local advantage but the extension leaves the corner open for white to life. He can either slide (like he did) or invade at 3-3 in both cases he can life and succeed at the invasion. If you want to apply pressure on the stone, kick it first with P17, white should then nobi towards the center - then you play the extension.
The reasoning behind this is, that thanks to the pincer stone white can't get the normal extension from his 2-stone wall and thus becomes overconcentrated. In addition the kick-stone helps the corner. The corner isn't totally safe, an invasion at 3-3 is still possible but white will get less profit from 3-3 than without P17.

I haven't looked at the rest of the game but from your comments it seems you were awefully concerned about whites tengen stone. Don't be. Tengen is rarely played at such an early stage as it was here, which implys it is not such a good move. The effect of tengen has to be considered, especially as it makes invasions for white easier and most ladders now favours white, but apart from that it makes no territory. You don't have to seperate every white stone from tengen to profit from this "mistake". Connecting a stone at the side to the center is usually dame and doesn't make any points, that alone is punishment enough. Let white connect to the center, but take the secure territory in exchange, if you try to seperate every invasion from tengen you are playing into whites hand, as tengen naturally negates your influence you get in exchange.
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Post by EdLee »

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Re: The impenetrable wall at 6 kyu

Post by skydyr »

oca wrote:
peti29 wrote:so these may be useful for others as well.

oh yes I like it :clap:
on black move 5, is there a reason to approch the weak side of komoku on the 4th line instead of the thrid line on E17?

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Well, when you approach on the 3rd line, you are often looking to split the corner and get a group on the side. The 4th line approach concedes the corner more in exchange for a position that usually has more influence. It's also a bit lighter, if you might get severely pincered, but it doesn't make territory in the same way. Both approaches are fairly common these days. The high one came into fashion more recently, maybe the mid 20th century, but is played perhaps slightly more frequently than the low. That said, these are just guidelines, as the specific joseki that get chosen can alter the outcome significantly in one direction or the other for each of the approaches. I would venture that pincers are more common against the low stone than the high, but pincers are played pretty frequently against the high stone too, so...

At its most basic, the choice is a question of whether you are treating the 3-4 stone as a 3rd line stone, and reducing it by capping, or as a 4th line stone, and aiming to undermine it, but with either choice lots of complicated fighting is possible. In Takao's newish joseki dictionary, out of maybe 600 pages of the two volumes, almost half is spent on these two approaches to the 3-4 stone, and he spends more than 70 pages on the variations stemming from just one of the pincers:

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EDIT: fixin' my its
Last edited by skydyr on Fri Feb 21, 2014 7:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The impenetrable wall at 6 kyu

Post by oca »

I got it. Merci skydyr
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Re: The impenetrable wall at 6 kyu

Post by peti29 »

MagicMagor, EdLee: thank you for your insightful comments.
Yes, the kick was the move! Somehow I didn't even consider it.
During the game I wasn't feeling I was that concerned with the tengen stone. But reading my comments it does seem so indeed.
Also, thank you for mentioning the C-15 "retaliation" idea after the unfinished joseki. Most of the time I have no idea how to punish such divergences.

Yesterday I played a series of really bad games. In the end I managed to win against a strong 6k, but out of 9 games I lost 7, so I'm back to 7k rank now.

- The first game was against a '?' marked opponent. During this game I felt I played well (or rather, ok). Though I think he was much stronger than me. Maybe I could have stood in the game longer were it not for my all or nothing mindset when a large fight erupted (nah, I checked it again, I had no chance).
- Then I played against a ~10k giving 4 handicap and I totally cornered myself ending up in resign.
- Then I played a 5k who slowly grinded me. Cutting everywhere and taking advantage of my mistakes.

These losses destroyed my spirit and I became overly aggressive and sketchy with my reading. This is probably when I'd have had to stop. But I wanted to win because I clung so hard to my projection/illusion that I must be better than 6k now.

- I played an 5k with 2 handicap (because by then I was back to 7k). I was inaccurate and generally played badly - I could have still won had I not misread a simple capturing race (black 116 should have been at G-19).
- Then I played a 6k, me playing inexplicable ad-hoc moves. At this point I was practically raging. The game ended in an epic fight which I could have won after my opponent made a huge mistake - but in the end, I didn't.
- After that I played a 7k. I played moderately bad. My opponent resigned after a simple reading mistake.
- Then I lost to a 6k by simply playing bad.
- Then a 8k totally owned me :o.
- After that I somewhat regained my calmness. Becoming sleepy and resigned. I played a strong 6k and managed to win because I won an early fight and I managed to keep my advantage.

Were it not for this last game I think I would have a very negative opinion about my skills and potential to ever get better...
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Re: The impenetrable wall at 6 kyu

Post by oca »

I don't want "to polute" your post with a game of mine, but I feel like you are bit disapointed.
So just I wanted to let you know that you are not alone, look at what I did yesterday...
Here we go, I just missed all my readings...

[edit "as suggested by "skydyr"]
the game is here viewtopic.php?f=4&t=9899
[/edit]
Last edited by oca on Fri Feb 21, 2014 7:55 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: The impenetrable wall at 6 kyu

Post by skydyr »

oca wrote:I don't want "to polute" your post with a game of mine...

You can also start a new thread in the Improve your game: Study Journals or Game Analysis section.

I think a lot of people browse the forum with the View unread posts link, so it will be seen.
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Re: The impenetrable wall at 6 kyu

Post by peti29 »

I didn't know about the Study Journals. Thx for mentioning it! Tbh, this thread probably belongs there.

- Since my bad series I played a guest account of unknown strength. It was an interesting game but then he left.
- Then I lost to a 8k because I made a careless mistake and his captured group in the middle of my territory escaped. Despite that it was a good game because I had a clean sense of what I wanted to do during the whole game.
- An unfair game came against a 2k. Unfair because I still think I'm better than 7k so 5 handicap was probably too much. I won and it was an interesting game for me - but I know from experience how unfun it is to play against unfair handicap so I'm kind of sorry for this opponent.
- I won against a 7k. Perhaps he made too many mistakes (and I'm sure I made many myself).
- A chaotic game came with lots of fighting against a 7k which I lost.
- I won against a 8k again. He liked to give me ponnukis for free.
- And then came this game against another guest account of unknown strength. This was a strange game as I didn't feel dominated at all. Yet in the end I lost by 23.5 points, which is a lot! I wonder what I did so wrong:

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Re: The impenetrable wall at 6 kyu

Post by skydyr »

peti29 wrote:- And then came this game against another guest account of unknown strength. This was a strange game as I didn't feel dominated at all. Yet in the end I lost by 23.5 points, which is a lot! I wonder what I did so wrong:


The short story of the game is that you played against someone significantly stronger than you.

As the game started, black mapped out a large moyo while white set up a slightly smaller one, but ended in sente. White used sente to invade, then played a classic reduction, betting that you couldn't attack the weakish group white tenukied from strongly enough. Once that happened, both sides had center strength, so it ended up small, while white had an invasion breaking up black's sides, and black didn't have the same on white's, so it was easy to play just to maintain the unequal balance and take big endgame points.

As for specifics:

Up to move 12 is fine, but at move 13, this is a very center oriented move, and it's not usually played without a stone around K16 to build up a moyo. Rather than followup with Q12, taking gote with K16 may work best with this move.

White 26: This is a pretty standard reduction. If black is going to push up, you want to go one more before connecting under, at least. Otherwise, white gets this nice turn and no worries. When you end in gote, after white reduced your potential, it's painful.

White 32: While this does threaten to take the corner, it's kind of slow to give this move to white in sente. Now is a great time to start attacking the topside group, or try to cut off the left side stones and set up for a splitting attack.

Through black 49: I'm not sure the shoulder hit was the best attack, but you sealed white in, which is a good result. The problem is that white was the one with the weak group, yet he lived in sente. It's imperative that you take sente away from this to use your newfound wall, or similarly damage white's prospects, if you want to keep the game balanced.

Move 51: Very submissive. There's no reason not to hane, as far as I can tell. Black is strong here, and white is weak, so you can get away with a lot of moves that would be unreasonable in an area with less black influence. In this case, black is alive on both sides, so a cut is meaningless.

Move 59: This looks like it attacks white's eyeshape, but white doesn't need eyeshape when he has an easy connection to set up a great and living wall. It ends up looking too close to white's thickness. Instead, consider working to cut white off from the bottom side. This would let you build power to invade the bottom later.

Move 65: Usually, if black is going to invade in some way, black attaches to the high stone, comes in one space lower, or shoulder hits the low stone. This is somewhat concessionary, but it is a reduction. The problem is that white's wall is so strong, so the reduction can become a liability.

Move 79: If black was going to give up this stone, then the double hane is incredibly unreasonable.

Through 108: White used his attack to make points on the bottom side while black mostly just saved his stones. In addition, white finished with sente to take the biggest point.

Over the rest of the game, white got all the big double sente, like the hane-connects on the edge, and took both shared corners, while black didn't make much in way of gains.
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Re: The impenetrable wall at 6 kyu

Post by TIM82 »

peti29 wrote:- And then came this game against another guest account of unknown strength. This was a strange game as I didn't feel dominated at all. Yet in the end I lost by 23.5 points, which is a lot! I wonder what I did so wrong:


Some ideas. As a guess I'd say the other guy was a SDK too, though stronger than you.

EDIT: at move 7, more of a personal opinion than an absolute fact :)

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Re: The impenetrable wall at 6 kyu

Post by Bill Spight »

My guess is that White was maybe two stones stronger than you. A few comments. :)



Go to B103. After that you let White get the big moves.
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Re: The impenetrable wall at 6 kyu

Post by peti29 »

skydyr, TIM82, Bill, thank you for your comments!

I think one of my problems could be that I over-value walls. I mean they are _supposed_ to be worth a lot but they just don't seem to work for me while they work for my opponents...

Here I post a game in which I kind of fell behind but then I spotted an opportunity and I ended up totally destroying my opponent. How come? This makes me see go very random.
After the game he asked for a rematch which I won again (very). But again it was due to me winning complicated fights I had no hope to read through - I just spotted some good moves that momentarily gained me just enough advantage.
He complained that he was playing very badly and I tried to console him by saying that he was just being unlucky. He insisted that go wasn't about luck. But I wonder, is that really so?

Here is the first game which I turned around:


- until :b9: I think I'm ok. I didn't quite know how to react to :w8:. Taking the white stones on the left into account I didn't want to jump into the corner as white would just seal me in with a wall. So I went with the double approach - which I don't know very well, so I didn't know how to continue.

- :b15: was probably not a good idea as :w16: now pincers both my weak stones on the bottom.
White diverted from the joseki and I remembered (I'm not sure I remembered right) that :b21: was the appropriate retaliation. In the end I got easy life but I was sealed on 2nd line which is not a very good thing IMO.

- :b29: was an experimental move. I thought jumping to 3-3 would become too easy for white. And I seemed to remember something like that move. It turned out moderately ok, because I got into white's central moyo. But he still had a large right-side-of-the-center and I feared a move like G-2 would cause a hard time for me.

- Then I went in to mess around in that right-center moyo. My plan was to make _something_ live there or reduce that moyo somewhat. I still had a big upper left corner and good potential on the top right. I was happy that I got :b55:.

- I let the bottom right die in favor of influence or top right territory but I kind of messed up because of the weakness of my center group. In the end I managed to connect my two weak groups and became strong with good influence plus I managed to get a big top right corner (up to :b99:)

- I didn't know how to react to :w100: and I lost my corner. (Or maybe it wasn't mine yet?)

- :b117: later became extremely important. But now I only played it on instinct - to make white's job a little bit more difficult.

- :w120: again a move I had a hard time answering to.

- :b147: after failing to kill that top left white group I suddenly realized that Q-13 group didn't have two eyes yet! So I began to harass that a bit but I didn't hope for killing it. However in the end I killed it! Not only that, but I also killed the E-13 group! The game was over and I thought "if only I did it on purpose"...
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Post by EdLee »

peti29 wrote:How come? This makes me see go very random.
Your feeling is correct. At these levels, the games can sometimes appear quite random, because they are.
It's because at these levels, the basics (the fundamentals) are very shaky -- sometimes there's no way
to predict the moves, because the basics are... not good. So some of the moves are quite literally random. :)
peti29 wrote:I think one of my problems could be that I over-value walls. I mean they are _supposed_ to be worth a lot but they just don't seem to work for me...
You don't know how much they are worth, and you don't know how to use them.
If you happen to get a nice powerful wall, sometimes you are lucky and it works for you; sometimes it doesn't -- it's almost random.
Sometimes you make a weak group and you falsely think it's a powerful wall.
This is once again because of your basics. All your problems are in your basics.
And by "you" I mean many of us at these levels. :)
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Re: The impenetrable wall at 6 kyu

Post by Bill Spight »

peti29 wrote:skydyr, TIM82, Bill, thank you for your comments!


De nada. :)

I think one of my problems could be that I over-value walls. I mean they are _supposed_ to be worth a lot but they just don't seem to work for me while they work for my opponents...


If they work for them but not you, the problem is not over-valuation.

He complained that he was playing very badly and I tried to console him by saying that he was just being unlucky. He insisted that go wasn't about luck. But I wonder, is that really so?


The great bridge writer, Victor Mollo, pointed out that good bridge players are lucky players. By which he meant that they create their own luck.

Here I post a game in which I kind of fell behind but then I spotted an opportunity and I ended up totally destroying my opponent. How come? This makes me see go very random.


You created your own luck. :)

After the game he asked for a rematch which I won again (very). But again it was due to me winning complicated fights I had no hope to read through - I just spotted some good moves that momentarily gained me just enough advantage.


Again, you created your own luck. :)

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Re: The impenetrable wall at 6 kyu

Post by TIM82 »

Some ideas, again. Remember to take with a grain of salt, I'm not that strong.

Perhaps the most important thing was that 39 is bad. Too close to white positions without backup.

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