Dusk Eagle wrote:lorill, in your variation, isn't the ladder still good for black? I think white has to push in the top-right once more to achieve a ladder-breaker.
Yes, it's still good for black for now, but still a nice exercice I guess.
Re: Post your ladders!
Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 6:28 pm
by mitsun
Here is the most difficult problem I have seen involving a ladder. The solution is over 20 moves deep and makes a good reading exercise even when you know the answer.
$$B B to play. Both ladders work for W. $$ ----------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . X O X . . . . . $$ | . . X X O O . . . . $$ | . . O O X X a . . . . $$ | . . O X O . . . . . . $$ | . . . X O . . . . . . $$ | . . . b . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
[go]$$ W captures a few stones, but ... $$ ----------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . X O X . . . . . . $$ | . . X X O O . . . . . $$ | . . O O X X O . . . . $$ | . . O X O X X 4 . . . $$ | . . . X O O 5 7 9 . . $$ | . . . 3 X O 6 8 . . . $$ | . . 2 . 0 . 1 . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
$$ B gets a fantastic result $$ ----------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . X O X 7 . . . . . $$ | . . X X O O . . . . . $$ | . . O O X X O . . . . $$ | . . O X O X X O . . . $$ | . . 4 X O O X X X . . $$ | . . 6 X X O O O 5 . . $$ | . . O 2 O 1 X . 3 . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
[go]$$ B gets a fantastic result $$ ----------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . X O X 7 . . . . . $$ | . . X X O O . . . . . $$ | . . O O X X O . . . . $$ | . . O X O X X O . . . $$ | . . 4 X O O X X X . . $$ | . . 6 X X O O O 5 . . $$ | . . O 2 O 1 X . 3 . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
Here is a set of ladder problems that usagi presented a while ago on KGS. Apparently he made several sets at various levels. An excerpt of the kibbitz:
usagi [1d]: this is level 5 usagi [1d]: my own designs hehe ... adoreme [-]: ddk level? usagi [1d]: This one is sdk level adoreme [-]: orly? pentatonic [8k]: i already got one wrong earlier adoreme [-]: penta did you read kageyama? pentatonic [8k]: what's kageyama? goatsunday [6k]: ^^ .. adoreme [-]: kageyama's fundamentals of go goatsunday [6k]: he says that you should practice reading ladders until reading them is easy pentatonic [8k]: ah okay usagi [1d]: He just passed away a year or two ago. adoreme [-]: yes very sad usagi [1d]: Yes that is why I made these problems, in his honor ... adoreme [-]: for anyone who read kageyama those problems should be ddk level usagi [1d]: Not #4
usagi [1d]: #4 is one of those problems where you have to know the tesuji
this thread reminded me an ultimate ladder game i saw few weeks ago at a go camp. unfortunately i don't remember names of the players (i think they were Korean, game few years old) and i was able to obtain only short part of sgf that is not even guaranteed to be correct (and failed to find the game in the GoGoD). if anyone recognizes the game, please tell me, it would be great to have the complete sgf
white just finished joseki in the lower left corner, but he needs a ladder to play this way. so he goes to the upper right corner to obtain a ladder breaker but instead sets another ladder, in the opposite direction. now both players take turns in playing dual ladder-breakers / -repairers and in the end black gets both ladders and white gets thickness in the center. white eventually wins the game
Re: Post your ladders!
Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 6:17 am
by lorill
another small one :
$$ $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . O . . O . X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , O O . . X X X . . | $$ | . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X . X . O O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . B . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . O . O . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . X . X . X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . . X . . O . O . O . O . . | $$ | . . X O X O . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O . . . X . O X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . X O O X . X X O O O . . | $$ | . . X O . . O O X X . . X . X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$ $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . O . . O . X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , O O . . X X X . . | $$ | . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X . X . O O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . B . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . O . O . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . X . X . X . X . . | $$ | . . . . 1 . . . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O 2 . X . . O . O . O . O . . | $$ | . . X O X O . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O . . . X . O X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . X O O X . X X O O O . . | $$ | . . X O . . O O X X . . X . X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Re: Post your ladders!
Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 7:32 am
by crux
mitsun wrote:Here is the most difficult problem I have seen involving a ladder. The solution is over 20 moves deep and makes a good reading exercise even when you know the answer.
Yes, that's one of my favourites too. In case someone wants to see the whole game, it's Cho Chikun - Kobayashi Satoru, 20th Kisei Final Game 2 (1996). Go World 76 has commentary. The game result is slightly different from the one given in mitsun's answer.
Re: Post your ladders!
Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 2:07 pm
by jts
This file is what I have so far. I haven't added Laman's game because I'm not quite sure how to present it as a problem, and I somehow missed Lorrill's latest.
I've been doing at least one every day it and makes reading ladders in games a lot easier. I can now read ladders where the sequence that creates the ladder isn't on the board yet, which wasn't possible two weeks ago.
Re: Post your ladders!
Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 2:55 pm
by Solomon
mitsun wrote:Here is the most difficult problem I have seen involving a ladder. The solution is over 20 moves deep and makes a good reading exercise even when you know the answer.
$$B B to play. Both ladders work for W. $$ ----------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . X O X . . . . . $$ | . . X X O O . . . . $$ | . . O O X X a . . . . $$ | . . O X O . . . . . . $$ | . . . X O . . . . . . $$ | . . . b . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
[go]$$B B to play. Both ladders work for W. $$ ----------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 3 2 X . . . . . $$ | . . X X O O . . . . $$ | . . O O X 1 . . . . . $$ | . . O X 4 . . . . . . $$ | . . . 5 6 . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
Re: Post your ladders!
Posted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 5:59 pm
by Solomon
Crude game I played on Oro, the ladder that saved me:
$$W $$ ---------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X . . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . O X X . X X . X O O X . | $$ | . . . , O . . O O O X O O . X , O . . | $$ | . . X . O X O . X X X X . O X . X O . | $$ | . . . X X O O O O O X . O . . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . X X O X O X X O O X . X . . | $$ | . . . O X . O X X X O X O X . O . . . | $$ | . X O X X . . . X O O O O X O . O . . | $$ | . X X O X . . . W , . . . X X O O . . | $$ | . O O O X O . . . . . . . X O X . . . | $$ | . . . . O X X . . . . . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . . . O X O . . . . . . X X O O . . | $$ | . . O . . O X X . . . . X X X . . O . | $$ | . . . . . O O X X X X X . X O O O X . | $$ | . . . O O X X O O O X X O X O X X . X | $$ | . . . . O X X O X X X O . O O O X . . | $$ | . . . O X . X O X O O . O . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . O O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ----------------------------------------
[go]$$W $$ ---------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X . . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . O X X . X X . X O O X . | $$ | . . . , O . . O O O X O O . X , O . . | $$ | . . X . O X O . X X X X . O X . X O . | $$ | . . . X X O O O O O X . O . . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . X X O X O X X O O X . X . . | $$ | . . . O X . O X X X O X O X . O . . . | $$ | . X O X X . . . X O O O O X O . O . . | $$ | . X X O X . . . W , . . . X X O O . . | $$ | . O O O X O . . . . . . . X O X . . . | $$ | . . . . O X X . . . . . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . . . O X O . . . . . . X X O O . . | $$ | . . O . . O X X . . . . X X X . . O . | $$ | . . . . . O O X X X X X . X O O O X . | $$ | . . . O O X X O O O X X O X O X X . X | $$ | . . . . O X X O X X X O . O O O X . . | $$ | . . . O X . X O X O O . O . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . O O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
Re: Post your ladders!
Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 11:15 am
by lorill
my latest one (move 146, or 143 if you want to read a little bit ahead) :
Here's the latest version, with new ladder problems from lorill, araban, marcus, and ez4u. There are now 26 problems.
If you see an interesting ladder somewhere else in the forum feel free to link to it. I'll probably see it anyway, but I might forget to add it the next time I update the SGF.
I'm also on the lookout for more problems where capturing in a ladder is a failure, because there is a net available. I only have two problems like that.
