The impenetrable wall at 6 kyu

peti29 · Post by **peti29** » Thu Feb 27, 2014 3:44 am

Thank you for your comments!

Ed, thx for enlightening me about that joseki-divergence retaliation. It's nice to know how to respond in such cases.

Bill, I like that "create our own luck" approach a lot!

Tim, if I knew white was to answer "horizontally" I'd have played 3-3. I feared that my eventual K-4 would feel very alone next to a white wall resulting from whites "vertical" answer. I intended to treat the rooftop shaped stones lightly, I didn't hope for a KO. But when white didn't fill in I thought I'd win the KO "at all costs" - I know, very bad mindset to start a KO, but somehow I felt it would be big.
Thx for suggesting O-8. I considered not defending the atari (can't remember my candidate moves) but I thought losing both L-5 and K-6 would be too much. But I never asked myself, why? Because after all they seem very expendable now.

- Yesterday I played a ~8k and it was a close game but he resigned in the middle of yose, didn't understand why.

- I lost to an [-] opponent. I made a mistake at the beginning. Then he played good reduction moves. I then went to chase his weak group from behind (which is not good) and ended up with a group in crane's nest. I tried to use it's remaining aji but then I let myself cut. So I tried to use the aji of that newly captured group which resulted in another group getting caught and then before I could have resigned, I ran out of time...

- And then I won a very short game against an 5k. I'll post this one.
- I found that my usual opening resembles the Kobayashi, so why not play that?
- I think that :b9:

worked well with my other stones on the board
- :w10:

left me puzzled. Now what to do? I considered playing peacefully at R-16 or P-16 but I thought white would just play the one which I didn't miai-style. So I took a deep breath and haned expecting the cross-cut.
- I later checked and it turned out that until :w16:

we played joseki (except for my K-16 stone placement) but then I diverted because I didn't know this joseki.
- when I played :b21:

I expected :w22:

but white should have probably just played P-17
- after :w28:

I didn't feel like defending those two stones in gote which makes me question why I played them in the first place? Would it have been better to just play :b21:

at P-15? Granted, I now had a stone at O-16 which seems big but I'm not sure...
- I was happy to play out that joseki at the top left. I think it was bad for white because of K-16.
- after :b39:

Q-9 seems too close. Still I'm not sure Q-9 would have been better at Q-10, because that then seems too close to the wall.
- the bottom right turned out luckily for me I think
- I remembered your advice to invade one stone lower than I did last time so I played :b47:

on the 3rd line
- Should :w54:

be a hane instead?
- I was happily building my wall when I accidentally sealed in and captured white's group. Game over.

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Thu Feb 27, 2014 4:48 am

peti29 wrote:about that joseki-divergence retaliation. It's nice to know how to respond in such cases.

Hi peti, you're welcome. There are many more variations not covered.
For example, on :b23:

, after the cut at Q5 (instead of your 2nd line S5 submissive hane), there are still many more variations.
And on :b21:

, your descend to R2 is not the only option for B. Another variation starts with the :black:

Q2 hane,
which can lead to very messy fights, which was entirely left out of the SGF on purpose.
There are a lot of variations. How to choose. "how to respond" is not so simple. Still a lot of work.

If you want to understand more about the :w20:

R5 hane variations,
you need to play lots of games where you have to deal with it,
and die horrible deaths, etc.

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Thu Feb 27, 2014 4:58 am

peti29 wrote:I was happily building my wall when I accidentally sealed in and captured white's group. Game over.

You were lucky because W killed himself with bad shapes and bad basics.
B should have died at the bottom.

TIM82 · Post by **TIM82** » Fri Feb 28, 2014 1:08 am

Again, some ideas, again, take with some salt.

Most important comment probably on move 47. Don't be off-put by counting (I might be!), for this example it suffices to visually compare sizes of areas roughly...

peti29 wrote:- I remembered your advice to invade one stone lower than I did last time so I played on the 3rd line

Whose advice in which game :scratch:

?

EDIT: clarification: on variation of move 15, at move 18, option 2 is equal, others are just examples of what would happen - says the joseki dictionary of Takao Shinji. And of course equalness should take whole board into account.

peti29 · Post by **peti29** » Fri Feb 28, 2014 4:09 am

Ed: thank you for your variations. I answered your question below.

Tim:
- you're right, :b15:

already diverts from joseki. I don't have a joseki book, my source is simply eidogo.com (Kogo's joseki dictionary). It doesn't list this joseki when the K-16 stone is on the 4th line, only when it's K-17 3rd line.
- yes, that's what I said about :w22:

-

variation. This is the answer to Ed's question as what my plan was with :b25:

. My foggy plan was to threaten with the ladder (which wouldn't work because a) the atari b) white's stone at the lower left corner). I thought I'd extend to the left (N-16) and then I can play the ladder. But, it's wrong on so many levels (e.g. if white answers to N-16 with O-18, but really there's problems even if w answers with N-17). It was a very bad plan. If black plays O-18 first, like in your variation, that's slightly better. B still doesn't have the ladder though.
- :b31:

variation is very interesting. No, I'm not familiar with attaching to the approaching stone from the outer side. But I watched Bat's Kobayashi lecture yesterday and this move came up there too.
- re your :b47:

question: post #38 game's :b65:

, skydyr's comment was (among other possibilities) to invade one space lower. Probably that was a whole different situation, but the pattern seemed very similar to me

Thank you for this very insightful strategic planning comment! I should have taken a step back and evaluated the situation before jumping into a risky invasion. I'll admit that usually I don't count in my games at all

(or at most, only visually). Also, I really like the high invasion outcomes for B.

Yesterday I only played one game in which I totally overpowered a 6k. I can't decide if it means that I'm finally getting better or my opponent just had a bad day...

Shaddy · Post by **Shaddy** » Fri Feb 28, 2014 9:50 am

I don't think the invasion at 47 is risky, just not as big as defending on the left. After that, if White does not defend the bottom, it would be a good time to invade.

TIM82 · Post by **TIM82** » Fri Feb 28, 2014 11:00 am

Shaddy wrote:I don't think the invasion at 47 is risky, just not as big as defending on the left. After that, if White does not defend the bottom, it would be a good time to invade.

Yes, my main point was also that defending left is bigger, but I was not very clear.

btw. Shaddy, if you could share what kind of typical results you would expect from the game 47, I would be delighted, and peti29 probably too

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Fri Feb 28, 2014 11:29 am

Let me second Shaddy's idea. The invasion allows White to build up strength and then use it to invade the left side. Better to play, say, the jump to E-06, which enlarges the Black framework on the left side and threatens to invade on the bottom side.

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Fri Feb 28, 2014 4:12 pm

peti29 wrote:Yesterday I only played one game in which I totally overpowered a 6k.
I can't decide if it means that I'm finally getting better or my opponent just had a bad day...

Of course we cannot tell much from just one game.
If we want to know the quality of that particular one game, first you need a much higher-level person
to look at both your moves and your opponent's moves. Then he/she can assess the levels of the moves, the basics, etc.
Maybe you both played well, maybe he had a bad day, maybe you both played lousy -- who knows?
It's baby steps. Lots and lots of baby steps. When they finally add up, you'll notice a significant improvement. But not before.

Hades12 · Post by **Hades12** » Fri Feb 28, 2014 8:31 pm

One thing that I advise is to watch stronger players, upper Dan level. You're not going to understand their play for the most part but you'll begin to absorb a better sense of shape. I hit my wall at 5k and stopped playing for a month. I literally didn't play a single game but I couldn't NOT be around go. So I watched the higher fans daily for a month. Then the next time I played I was smoking 2k players easily after getting smashed by 6k players. During my month hiatus I also went over some pro games and tesuji and life and death. Just a few problems a day, when I was waiting in line or on break at work. I really recommend the smartgo kifu app.

peti29 · Post by **peti29** » Mon Mar 03, 2014 7:12 am

I think I might have passed my long standing wall - or more precisely I might be passing through it right now. If I had more time on my hands maybe I could become even stronger. This way it's only going to be probably 4k.

Some "symptoms" I'm noticing for those stuck at 6k:
- some early fuseki considerations. E.g. I used to mindlessly approach the next one-stone enemy corner. Now I tend to make a shimari if that's more beneficial to me, etc. This is one area I feel I could boost my strength: now would be the time to study various popular openings and typical counter actions.
- I still don't count territory, but what I caught myself counting is liberties of groups. Thanks to this I now dare to make cuts where I previously wouldn't.
- My reading is better. E.g. I remember it being a major step when I learned to spot snap-backs before they formed. Now I can set up snap backs as a form of defense. Also I'm a lot more inclined to try and kill groups that are not 100% alive yet. (I downloaded a tsumego app onto my phone with which I can practice while traveling on the bus - that helps a lot.)
But there is still plenty of room for improvement here - I make many mistakes.
- (My joseki knowledge is still very low. Another area for improvement, if I had the time.)
- I now see that "geometric" concept of chasing groups which are "behind enemy lines". It's hard to explain but I mean the situation when the running enemy group is inside the "shape" which forms when you connect your edges/walls using an imaginary line.
- I start to understand dan level games. (And I don't mean the 10 sec fight-fests which are overly popular on KGS and are still too complex for me to understand.)

I'm on a winning streak, but I still lost to a 2k with 4 handicap yesterday (only 2.5 pts though).

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Tue Mar 04, 2014 6:42 am

peti29 wrote:I think I might have passed my long standing wall -
or more precisely I might be passing through it right now.

In my experience, when we are in a fog, especially a very thick fog, we cannot see anything
and we have no idea where we are, or where we are heading. The fog can be so dense and thick that
it takes years to get out of, if we ever get out at all.

In my experience, I know of only two ways to be certain we've had a breakthrough:

We have not only cleared the fog, but have traveled a distance, so that we can clearly see, OK, we are now here,
and we can clearly see the fog was over there, with some clear distance behind us; or
A much higher-level person informs us of our breakthrough. (Even if we cannot see it ourselves, for the moment.)

Maybe you have an entirely different set of experiences. Good luck.

moboy78 · Post by **moboy78** » Tue Mar 04, 2014 7:20 am

The most important thing you can learn from what everyone here is telling you, peti, are these 3 things: reading ability, style, and fundamentals. Every correction they make in those game reviews revolves around those 3 things. Reading ability is pretty important for obvious reasons, and so is having good fundamentals and a good sense for what's going on during a game. By style, I don't mean that you prefer moyos to territory or vice versa, I mean something else. The style I'm referring to is how crude and vulgar you're moves are and how efficiently they're actually accomplishing whatever goals you have for them. Improving those three things are pretty much all you need to do to improve at any level.

peti29 · Post by **peti29** » Wed Mar 05, 2014 2:56 am

moboy78:
I'm sorry, but your comment only makes me frustrated. I don't understand fundamentals, and I don't understand style. (At least I get reading ability

)
I've heard referring to fundamentals many times but I don't get it.

What is "fundamentals"? Is it data? A collection of shapes, tesuji and joseki? Then why is it called "fundamentals"? Because to me "fundamentals" sounds like something deep. Some basic truth about how the stones work, maybe even the meaning of moves. But I have no idea how something like that could be learned/practiced. Probably if you are already a master of the game then you'll understand "fundamentals" but it doesn't work the other way around. Besides, those are only concepts created by the human mind. If quantum computers would play each other there would be no meaning to moves only algorithmic search. Then again, GO is played by humans so maybe there is meaning to moves after all.

At least I understand what style is. But again, what exactly makes a move "vulgar"? How should I know what the most elegant/effective way is to achieve "my goals" - esp. when my goal is usually not to screw up totally. How can one improve their style?
Is it only a collection of proverbs? E.g. not to play empty triangle; 123 jump; prefer 1 sp jump to knights move; don't atari if it's not a must?
Applying stylish moves is hard IMO (even if I knew what the most stylish move was - which I don't) I'd still limit my play probably needlessly. I think some of those style considerations are only tradition, but even if they are usually good, there are still plenty of cases when they are not good or not the best move. Again, I feel this is not a path to improvement, rather something you automatically get once you're there.

---

I think I'm inside the wall. I'm Han Solo! Forever cemented into that damned wall. I don't care, I'm fed up. Yesterday I played a series of bad games again. Some I lost and some I won but I was again playing mindlessly - probably because I was too tired to play. At least I wasn't playing tragically (like I usually do when tired) only simply bad - that's improvement if you look at it that way.
But there were still fuseki situations I had no idea what to do, there were walls I could not use, there were running groups I wasn't able to kill and there were stupid reading mistakes (but at least I can spot those).

I thank you all for your time! And I'm very sorry for wasting it. I think I'll be staying in my wall a little longer yet. You know, it's warm and all.

If I ever get stronger I'll post it here (if I don't forget).
Bye for now,
Peter

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Wed Mar 05, 2014 6:35 am

peti29 wrote:makes me frustrated.
I don't understand fundamentals...
I've heard referring to fundamentals many times but I don't get it.
I don't care, I'm fed up.

Hi Peter, your frustrations, questions, and experiences are actually very common for many people, including myself.

Life In 19x19

The impenetrable wall at 6 kyu

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