So, I played this game, and my opponent immediately opened with a really influence oriented variation on a common joseki. I struggled with how to deal with this unexpected move, and in the end my opponent got a large strong wall facing his corner stone and from that point on, I couldn't figure out a good way to fight his influence.
I tried making two invasions which were too deep, and in the end I lost a large group. I know these invasions were doomed to fail, so I don't really want to focus on them. I'd like to focus on how I could've avoided the situation in the first place, maybe the first 50-60 moves?
Any suggestions are helpful!
Influence oriented game
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EdLee
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117 was a 60+ point mistake. 
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krafczyk
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Re: Influence oriented game
For 
, I didn't think I could live where I was, so I figured the best method to make those moves worth something was to escape.
For 117, I think it must've been a misclick.. he didn't ask for undo though. I'dve let him have it..
, I didn't think I could live where I was, so I figured the best method to make those moves worth something was to escape.For 117, I think it must've been a misclick.. he didn't ask for undo though. I'dve let him have it..
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ez4u
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Re: Influence oriented game
It is important to realize that White's choices in the early going contributed signficantly to the split of territory for influence in this game. In play in the upper left, lower right, and upper right White could have chosen more balanced ideas that would have blunted Black's center. Let's take a look at what I mean...krafczyk wrote:So, I played this game, and my opponent immediately opened with a really influence oriented variation on a common joseki. I struggled with how to deal with this unexpected move, and in the end my opponent got a large strong wall facing his corner stone and from that point on, I couldn't figure out a good way to fight his influence.
I tried making two invasions which were too deep, and in the end I lost a large group. I know these invasions were doomed to fail, so I don't really want to focus on them. I'd like to focus on how I could've avoided the situation in the first place, maybe the first 50-60 moves?
Any suggestions are helpful!
...
Below is the most frequent reply in the upper left, with a representative continuation (21 examples in my database of this whole-board position). Note that the marked stone represents Black's claim that the left side is not important (otherwise Black would continue with some form of connection and extension on the left). In the game White's play at 'a' says, "No, the left side is the more important direction." I have to say that I have 46 examples of people who disagree with you and no examples of those who agree!
White 16 in the game is a mistake of course, since there is no follow up. White should skip that and simply play 18.White 22 in the lower right leaves the scene of the action too soon. White should just continue at 23 in the upper left. Note that playing there would leave White the threat to punch through between the marked stones, which would have a major impact on any invasion of the top. The continuation in the upper left is an embarrassment for White.
Did you consider simply jumping to 'b' in response to the pincer? It would be one way to simplify the game IMHO. Nevertheless,
should not yield a bad result...
In the next diagram White goes wrong in several ways IMHO. First 
protects against a cut that does not exist yet. 
works very nicely with Black's other central influence. White can continue at 'a' to move into the center. However, the bigger question is whether White can exchange 39 for the cut at 'a' and (only) then connect at . White has already played the slide into the corner and is therefore strong here. Simply connecting at is too weak.Responding to
in the game by sliding to 
is poor. The reason is that the White corner stones are already completely alive. is a so-so yose play but we are not in yose yet. The other effect of is to kill off the original approach stone at O4. This is very bad because at this point it still has a lot of aji, particularly combined with the cutting point at 'b'.
Finally there are a couple of points regarding the upper right. First, because the right side is open to a slide or jump from the marked stone, White should want to approach from the opposite side at 'a'. For the same reason Black should have played something like a cap on the approach stone. When Black chose a pincer at 
White should have thanked Black profusely and then immediately attached on top at 'b'. If Black exchanges 'c' for 'd', the marked White stone makes the cut at 'e' effective even with the marked Black stone present. I think White would have had a good opportunity to run out into the center, erasing a lot of Black's influence in the process.
Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21
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krafczyk
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Re: Influence oriented game
Thanks a lot for your reply,
I need to become more aware about what my opponent think is valuable, and what I think is valuable. I should've seen that first variation as important..
btw, is
some kind of pseudo joskei? or was I right to be a bit surprised?
I guess I was a bit too timid about my group in the lower left corner. I should definitely have not play..
I'll certainly think about these comments.
I need to become more aware about what my opponent think is valuable, and what I think is valuable. I should've seen that first variation as important..
btw, is
some kind of pseudo joskei? or was I right to be a bit surprised?I guess I was a bit too timid about my group in the lower left corner. I should definitely have not play
..I'll certainly think about these comments.
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Uberdude
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Re: Influence oriented game
No, it's a real joseki. Ask Takemiya 9p or Cristian Pop 7d.krafczyk wrote:btw, is
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ez4u
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Re: Influence oriented game
About 9, below is the result of searching my database. We can see the continuations 'a' through 'g' with the number of cases found. The most common, 'a' is a probe before Black decides to connect with 'b' or 'c'. In the past, Black mainly simply connected without the probe. The jump at 'd' is an alternative emphasizing the center, as you noticed. It also expects to get sente, which the connections do not achieve. It only appears in a little over 5% of the games, nevertheless it is a known strategy. Statistics:krafczyk wrote:...
btw, is
I guess I was a bit too timid about my group in the lower left corner. I should definitely have not play
...
765 matches
Ba: 310
Bb: 246
Bc: 76
Bd: 46
Be: 46
Bf: 40
Bg: 1
Your slide at 40 in the game is of course found in joseki books. It should be thought of as a follow up rather than as part of the original joseki.
Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21