Discipline

[daal]

I think go can tell you quite a bit about yourself, but it may not be what you want to hear.

One thing that I keep hearing on a regular basis is that my ability to completely concentrate on one thing for an hour or more cannot be relied on. I can't seem to get through a game without making at least a few thoughtless moves. Sometimes they are meaningless, sometimes they are game changing, but often they just have a demoralizing effect, taking away my confidence that I can stay in the game.

Another thing go keeps telling me is that I am impatient. Of course I am! I want the game to be over before I lose concentration!

It also likes to point out is my laziness, remarking that if I don't read how well stones are connected, I shouldn't be surprised to find that they are not.

I really liked what I read in another thread, that someone saw go as a discipline. I suppose it is meant in this sense: "training that corrects, molds, or perfects the mental faculties or moral character." Also, the word discipline refers to a quality: "the control that is gained by requiring that rules or orders be obeyed and punishing bad behavior"*

The required rules for me to follow would be: keep your concentration, stay patient, do the work.

I still have a long way to go.

*http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/discipline

[Loons]

I wonder if there's a reliable way to become more attentive and focused (my fingers waged a war to write 'coffee' instead of 'focus', so I am definitely not an expert on this).

Sam Harris and other real neuroscientists keep lauding meditation. I wonder if meditation could complement go or vice versa. Meditation and discipline both being things I'm unfamiliar with, I assume they're connected somehow.

[EdLee]

Meditation and discipline both being things I'm unfamiliar with, I assume they're connected somehow.

Yes. Many ancient cultures have known about this for thousands of years.

Recently, there was at least one experiment where they show the brain scans of people
before, during, and after mindful meditation.

I wonder if meditation could complement go or vice versa.

To me, a serious Go game of an hour or more is a form of meditation.
( Perhaps researchers have already produced visual evidence from brain scans? )
Running a 4-hour marathon seems to be another form of meditation.

Other similar forms of "mind-body state": Formula-1 racing, Nascar racing, pro speed skiing, ...
if the mind is even "unclear" for a split second, the consequence can be disastrous.

[Hushfield]

For everything that follows: my comments come from a predominantly Japanese tradition in Soto Zen Buddhism. There are plenty of other ways to approach meditation, this just happens to be the one available to me, and the one I currently pursue.

As someone who meditates quite regularly: I feel a lot better mentally and am just calmer when I manage to maintain my daily meditation practice. Or can I maintain the daily practice because I feel calmer? At any rate, if I manage to maintain my daily practice for extended periods of time (months), I do tend to notice a significant jump in my playing ability, and I start to feel more confident on the board.

One important reason for this is because of the way mindfulness meditation works. You focus attention on the breath, and whenever you notice yourself getting distracted, you leave the trail of thoughts you were chasing and put attention back on the breath. This happens dozens, if not hundreds of times during one extended meditation session. If you meditate for longer periods, you do this "coming back" so often the repetition really starts leaving its mark on the way your mind works. They are like mental push-ups. This exercise is designed to subtly increase the amount of space there is between impulse and reaction. Let me give you an example. A hungry person sees a bar of chocolate in his kitchen cupboard. Almost immediately this person will take the bar and eat it. Somebody that is trained in meditation will get the same impulse, and might still take the bar of chocolate, but what's important is what happens in between: the first person immediately reacts to the impulse, the second one might leave a second or two between impulse and reaction. I'm sure many of you know how many poor moves would not be played if you kept your hand away from the mouse for 2 more seconds.

One of the main things mindfulness meditation does through this exercise, is help us deal with the instant gratification desire. We want something and we want it now. If someone manages to work with this desire in a better way (notice how I didn't say get rid of it, the desire will always be there), I'm sure he can play closer to the upper limit of his current playing strength.

So, in short: yes, go can teach us things about discipline, but the way we discipline ourselves can definitely help us play better go.

[EdLee]

I feel a lot better mentally and am just calmer when I manage to maintain my daily meditation practice.
Or can I maintain the daily practice because I feel calmer?

Yes; it's a positive feedback loop.

Hushfield, I heard of certain groups of very serious meditation practitioners (perhaps Zen-related)
doing extended, intensive meditation sessions: maybe for a week or more (no talking for a week, as a part of it, for example).
Have you had similar experiences ?

[Hushfield]

Ed, these extended sessions are called sesshin in Japanese, it's the term a lot of traditions also use in the west. The English equivalent would be (meditation) retreat. I think most buddhist organisations offer these in some form or other. I've never done one of these before, but it's definitely on the to-do list.

[SoDesuNe]

One could argue: How long you can maintain your focus is not as important as how well you can use it.

I think discipline also means: being able to play a stone!
You should know (or learn) where your limits are (e.g. calculation- or experience-wise) and instead of double-checking and doubting and pondering and looking all over the board for candidate moves, you should just place your stone. Even more when you simply don't have a clue. Place it and see how things unfold.

If your move does not work that well, fine, learn from it. If you make the same mistake again and again, then discipline is not your problem, I guess.

In my opinion: There is no point in starring at the board for minutes, no matter how composed your demeanor, when the move, you will finally succeed to play, is bad.

[Uberdude]

A very long deep meditation:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 53045.html

[Bonobo]

A very long deep meditation:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 53045.html

They should make him pay taxes, then his followers should quickly agree that he’s dead

[EdLee]

Cremation has certain side benefits, like getting rid of some evidence.

[skydyr]

Cremation has certain side benefits, like getting rid of some evidence.

Regardless of whether this is the intent in this case or not, it's hard to fault someone for wanting to treat their dead family member the way their culture has been treating them for thousands of years. One can, of course, always seek an autopsy prior to the cremation, just as they tend to do with burials.

[DJLLAP]

I have a friend getting his masters in music right now, and he spent a couple months in Taiwan in a monastery where (as you might guess) he did a lot of meditation, but did not practice music at all. When he got back, he found that music was much easier, especially the arduous task of sightreading.

[jeromie]

I think that playing go can teach us something about ourselves and help us to live well, but it's difficult to apply it properly. There are certainly many lessons that I can learn from playing and studying go--perseverance, patience, observing what is really before me rather than what I wish to see, keeping my mind focused on the task at hand, etc.--but it is difficult to translate these lessons into other areas of my life. Sometimes playing go can be even counterproductive for my work or relationships, as I can find myself thinking about go when my mind should be on another task or person! That brings to mind one of the greatest lessons to be learned. Go has a proper place in my life, and when I engage it properly it is good for me. But when I allow it to seep out beyond its proper bounds, that which was once good works only to my detriment.

[virre]

Playing Go I get into something close to a meditative state. Or at least I am mindfull of the game, although it is not exactly like what I get from Sangha practice it is close to it.

And as Hushfield I get the positive effects when I are frequent in my practice (which I have not been the last year or so.)

[Xiaoding]

"One thing that I keep hearing on a regular basis is that my ability to completely concentrate on one thing for an hour or more cannot be relied on. I can't seem to get through a game without making at least a few thoughtless moves. Sometimes they are meaningless, sometimes they are game changing, but often they just have a demoralizing effect, taking away my confidence that I can stay in the game.

Another thing go keeps telling me is that I am impatient. Of course I am! I want the game to be over before I lose concentration!"


Define "concentration". I don't see how one could lose it, barring interruptions.

I don't think "thoughtless" moves are the result of poor concentration, it's something else. For me, not knowing what to do, and playing too fast.

For me, I have been working on my concentration lately. The first step, was figuring out, what the heck it even was. I thought up some steps.

First, before the game, go the bathroom, finish dinking that tea, get rid of anything that will interrupt the game.

Then when the game starts, do nothing, but look at the board. This is separate, very much so, from thinking about the moves on the board, or indeed, any kind of thought at all.

So, for me, that's it. I define concentration, as keeping my eyes on the board. Period.

At first, I did not think this would make any difference. But, just doing this, has made a world of difference! Perhaps three stones worth!

So, I separate, concentration, looking at the board, from thinking, about the moves on the board.

I find, just by keeping my eyes on the board, things just pop up. My radar shows me danger signs, I see more ways to invade, I find better moves. All without thinking anything. When I do have to think, it comes easier, since, perhaps, all the visual information is already right there.

When interrupted, I give myself 60 seconds, of just staring at the board, before I make a move.

Thnx!