Being a history nut, I have always been interested in classical go games and have replayed a lot of ancient Chinese and Japanese games since I learned go. Recently, reading more about go during the Edo period and the following decades made me even more interested in having access to more material.
Posts/books/articles by John Fairbairn and mention by Bill Spight of Hattori Inshuku's Okigo Jizai were kind of eye-openers: there is a vast amount of commented go games and instructional material just waiting to be read.
Background
I have studied a bit of Chinese ten years ago, stopped completely afterwards but still remember plenty of characters. Using Chinese tsumego books has also helped retention and acquisition of new vocabulary items. This means I already know words and should be able to look up for kanji quite easily in online or paper dictionaries.
I also studied a very tiny bit of Japanese at some point. Some basic grammar must still be stored somewhere in my memory. If not, the experience might be more painful than I intend it to.
Goal
Modest, but may be too ambitious still. I hope to acquire a very basic knowledge of written Japanese that will enable me to "read" (i. e. get the gist of) a very specific subset of Japanese literature: game commentaries. Even this apparently modest goal will surely prove too much and the project will probably end before that goal is reached. After all, this is only a side project of an already time consuming hobby. Still, let's give it a try.
Tools
Online Japanese dictionaries (mainly jisho.org)
Japanese grammar books I still have at home
Google for puzzling grammar points
...
Material
I will use books from the Digital Library of the Meiji Era website because my interest lies in reading commentaries about games of the Edo/Meiji period. There is so much material here that choice might prove difficult. Interestingly many books have the kanji "subtitled" in hiragana. I'd like for the text to be rather short so that I can translate entire pieces in one go, this usually gives a nice feeling of accomplishement.
At the moment I have my eyes set upon vol. 2 of Shusai's commented games (打碁選集. 下巻, 1939) and 置碁打方妙手百番 (1918), a collection of "fake" handicap games for learning purposes.
Shusai's commented games have no furigana but each sentence is rather short and the matter interests me very much. Texts in the 置碁打方妙手百番 are longer but use furigana. At this point I don't know which one I will use, maybe both.
(Just enough) Japanese to read classical commentaries
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Boidhre
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Re: (Just enough) Japanese to read classical commentaries
Interesting project! I'm not sure if you've come across it or it'll be much help but this online grammar resource is the most thorough that I've seen: http://www.imabi.net/
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John Fairbairn
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Re: (Just enough) Japanese to read classical commentaries
Do be aware that if you intend to use the old resources, you are going to come up against several problems:I also studied a very tiny bit of Japanese at some point. Some basic grammar must still be stored somewhere in my memory. If not, the experience might be more painful than I intend it to.
1. Many more characters will be used, even for common grammatical words or endings, and these are often not in ordinary dictionaries. You will probably need a dictionary of the old language (古語辞書) and most certainly a Japanese-Japanese one.
2. The characters, and sometimes even the kana, will be in their old forms.
3. Kana spellings will be old form.
4. The grammar will be classical (e.g. -eba meaning 'because', not 'if', which is -aba).
5. Many texts will actually be in Chinese.
You can ease, but not eradicate, some of these problems by limiting yourself to Meiji or pre-war Showa texts.
So long as you know what you are letting yourself in for, it's a great ride!
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Shenoute
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Re: (Just enough) Japanese to read classical commentaries
Thank you both for your comments and references to tools!
Yes, I was planning to use Meiji and Show texts precisely because I didn't want to tackle a Japanese that would be too far away from what I could easily find described online or in reference books.
As for characters and kana, I've only done a couple of sentences but have already run into plenty of apparently older forms. It certainly adds difficulty
Yes, I was planning to use Meiji and Show texts precisely because I didn't want to tackle a Japanese that would be too far away from what I could easily find described online or in reference books.
As for characters and kana, I've only done a couple of sentences but have already run into plenty of apparently older forms. It certainly adds difficulty
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Shenoute
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Re: (Just enough) Japanese to read classical commentaries
I finally settled on Shusai's commented games (打碁選集. 下巻*) as a starting point, so here it is. I'll post a sentence at a time and a sgf with all comments at the end. Shusai's comments are apparently brief and not that numerous (around 5/10 per game).
As I hoped, I seem to recall (at least vaguely) what the different particles mean, but I checked anyway to make sure and refresh my memory. Of course there is still plenty of semi-guesswork at play, so mistakes are sure to creep in in numbers. Feel free to comment and correct!
2nd game
Diagram 1 (p.3)
*黒十四はこの手で四五に詰めるのも好點である。
はha (read wa) topic marker, "as for"
この kono "this"
手te "move"
で de particle of location "at", also "by means of"
に ni particle marking direction "to"
の no, A no B means that A characterizes B
も mo "also, too"
詰める tsumeru, lots of different meaning given at jisho.org. As far as the game of go is concerned,
"to check" (as meant of extensions) seems to be the meaning here.
好點 "good point", maybe read kou ten? Is 點 an old form of 点?
である de aru is explained as a more formal version of desu in the grammar books I used. A wa B desu "A = B".
Translation
"As for
, at/with this move the also-good-point of the checking at 45 exists." > " could also be the checking extension at 45."/" , a checking extension at 45 would also be a good point."
With a diagram (45 is the marked intersection):
*Only vol. 2 seems to be available at the Digital Library from the Meiji Era.
Edit. Added/corrected diagram.
As I hoped, I seem to recall (at least vaguely) what the different particles mean, but I checked anyway to make sure and refresh my memory. Of course there is still plenty of semi-guesswork at play, so mistakes are sure to creep in in numbers. Feel free to comment and correct!
2nd game
Diagram 1 (p.3)
*黒十四はこの手で四五に詰めるのも好點である。
はha (read wa) topic marker, "as for"
この kono "this"
手te "move"
で de particle of location "at", also "by means of"
に ni particle marking direction "to"
の no, A no B means that A characterizes B
も mo "also, too"
詰める tsumeru, lots of different meaning given at jisho.org. As far as the game of go is concerned,
"to check" (as meant of extensions) seems to be the meaning here.
好點 "good point", maybe read kou ten? Is 點 an old form of 点?
である de aru is explained as a more formal version of desu in the grammar books I used. A wa B desu "A = B".
Translation
"As for
, at/with this move the also-good-point of the checking at 45 exists." > " could also be the checking extension at 45."/" , a checking extension at 45 would also be a good point."With a diagram (45 is the marked intersection):
*Only vol. 2 seems to be available at the Digital Library from the Meiji Era.
Edit. Added/corrected diagram.
Last edited by Shenoute on Wed Apr 06, 2016 11:24 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Shenoute
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Re: (Just enough) Japanese to read classical commentaries
*黒十六は二二の挟みを先にしたい處であつた。
挟み hasami "pincer"
o particle marking direct object
先に sakini "before"
したい "want to do", an adjective
處 tokoro "place/situation", outdated kanji for 所 according to jisho.org
つた -tsuta = -tta, verbal ending. De atta seems to be the past of de aru
Translation
"As for
, the place-wanting-to-do-the-pincer-of-22-before exists." > " , one wants to pincer at 22 first."
That is (22 is the marked intersection) Edit. Corrected diagram.
挟み hasami "pincer"
o particle marking direct object
先に sakini "before"
したい "want to do", an adjective
處 tokoro "place/situation", outdated kanji for 所 according to jisho.org
つた -tsuta = -tta, verbal ending. De atta seems to be the past of de aru
Translation
"As for
, the place-wanting-to-do-the-pincer-of-22-before exists." > " , one wants to pincer at 22 first."That is (22 is the marked intersection) Edit. Corrected diagram.
Last edited by Shenoute on Wed Apr 06, 2016 11:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Shenoute
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Re: (Just enough) Japanese to read classical commentaries
*黒二十乃至三十となつた姿は、然し相當手厚い形である。
乃至 A naishi B "from A to B"
となつた tonatsuta > tonatta past form of tonaru, "to become"
姿 sugata "figure, form, shape"
然し shikashi "but, however" (I don't see exactly why a "but" would be needed here, so maybe = 然 "if so, in that case" here)
當 (> modern 当) "right, appropriate".相 當 "mutually acceptable", "suitable for both", "even"
厚い atsui "thick"
形 katachi "shape"
sugata/katachi: my impression is that katachi is the more technical term (it is referenced on Sensei's Library), while sugata may refer more generally to the aspect of the position as a whole (the "result"?).
I am unsure about 手厚い形 part. A little googling shows that 手厚い forms a unit, meaning "courteous, cordial". 手厚い形 appears on some shogi and go websites. Does it still mean "thick shape" or simply "good/confortable shape"?
Translation
"From
to 
, as for the shape/form/aspect having become, it is an acceptable-for-both and good (thick?) shape." > "The sequence from 20 to 30 gives an even result and a good (thick?) shape."
( is the marked stone)
Edit. Corrected diagram.
乃至 A naishi B "from A to B"
となつた tonatsuta > tonatta past form of tonaru, "to become"
姿 sugata "figure, form, shape"
然し shikashi "but, however" (I don't see exactly why a "but" would be needed here, so maybe = 然 "if so, in that case" here)
當 (> modern 当) "right, appropriate".相 當 "mutually acceptable", "suitable for both", "even"
厚い atsui "thick"
形 katachi "shape"
sugata/katachi: my impression is that katachi is the more technical term (it is referenced on Sensei's Library), while sugata may refer more generally to the aspect of the position as a whole (the "result"?).
I am unsure about 手厚い形 part. A little googling shows that 手厚い forms a unit, meaning "courteous, cordial". 手厚い形 appears on some shogi and go websites. Does it still mean "thick shape" or simply "good/confortable shape"?
Translation
"From
to , as for the shape/form/aspect having become, it is an acceptable-for-both and good (thick?) shape." > "The sequence from 20 to 30 gives an even result and a good (thick?) shape."(
is the marked stone)
Edit. Corrected diagram.
Last edited by Shenoute on Wed Apr 06, 2016 11:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Shenoute
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Re: (Just enough) Japanese to read classical commentaries
*白三七は黒い、の對鏡を嫌ふ。
My guess is that the comma is used here to make sure that い is not to be read but refers to an intersection on the diagram. It seems to be the case also in other diagrams but not always.
對鎖 seems to be problematic to modern dictionaries. It may be the same as 封鎖 "blockade" (jisho.org). Interchangeable use of similar characters (對/封) is something I encountered in Classical Chinese so I guess it is not suprising to find it also in Japanese.
嫌ふ not sure about the ending ふ here. As far as I have been able to find information, this seems to be an old form of the modern kirai "to dislike".
Translation
"As for
, one dislikes the blockade of black い." > " prevents white from being sealed in by black い."
(い being the marked intersection)
My guess is that the comma is used here to make sure that い is not to be read but refers to an intersection on the diagram. It seems to be the case also in other diagrams but not always.
對鎖 seems to be problematic to modern dictionaries. It may be the same as 封鎖 "blockade" (jisho.org). Interchangeable use of similar characters (對/封) is something I encountered in Classical Chinese so I guess it is not suprising to find it also in Japanese.
嫌ふ not sure about the ending ふ here. As far as I have been able to find information, this seems to be an old form of the modern kirai "to dislike".
Translation
"As for
, one dislikes the blockade of black い." > " prevents white from being sealed in by black い."(い being the marked intersection)
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Uberdude
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Re: (Just enough) Japanese to read classical commentaries
Are you aware of Richard Hunter's books:
- "Just Enough Japanese - Volume One: Basic Level Practical Japanese for Go Players"
- "Just Enough Japanese - Volume Two: Intermediate Level Practical Japanese for Go Players"
They are available as smartgo books from https://gobooks.com/books.html, not sure if there is a paper version.
- "Just Enough Japanese - Volume One: Basic Level Practical Japanese for Go Players"
- "Just Enough Japanese - Volume Two: Intermediate Level Practical Japanese for Go Players"
They are available as smartgo books from https://gobooks.com/books.html, not sure if there is a paper version.
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Shenoute
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Re: (Just enough) Japanese to read classical commentaries
Thanks for the reference. Sadly I have nothing to read smartgo books on.Uberdude wrote:Are you aware of Richard Hunter's books:
- "Just Enough Japanese - Volume One: Basic Level Practical Japanese for Go Players"
- "Just Enough Japanese - Volume Two: Intermediate Level Practical Japanese for Go Players"
They are available as smartgo books from https://gobooks.com/books.html, not sure if there is a paper version.
Thanks! At the moment, I try to focus on vocabulary and particles, so as long as I don't miss a negation I'm ok but at some point I will indeed need to spend more time on verbal forms.Marcel Grünauer wrote:I've found a page about classical Japanese, which states that "verbs now ending in う (u) once ended in ふ (hu) instead, and conjugated accordingly".
It might also - but this is a wild guess, I'm not an etymologist, nor is my Japanese fluent - have to do with something called 終止形 (shuushi-kei) "conclusive form", which "was the form used to end a statement."
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Shenoute
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Re: (Just enough) Japanese to read classical commentaries
*黒五六は適切な受方が無いのと一つには勢ひであつたらう。
適切な tekisetsu appropriate/adequate
受 take/get/catch
-方 method of (vb+方)
無い nai verbal negation
のと no to because of
一つには hitotsu ni wa for one thing/only
勢ひ as such on http://kobun.weblio.jp. Apparently equivalent of 気勢 fervour/ardour/vigour; 活力 vitality/energy/dynamism
-らう -rau my understanding (quite an overstatment) is based on this and a sentence found here. Basically -rau seems to bring a touch of inference/probability.
I'm not sure I go this one right. Since the meaning of the sentence seems to hang on who does not catch what (white cannot catch 56 or black cannot catch the white group is trying to cut off?), which is left unsaid and on the nuance brought by the use of hitotsu ni wa and -rau. After pondering grammar and the game record, it seems to me that the meaning here is that since black cannot expect to catch the white group at the bottom, his move at 56 appears powerful but actually isn't.
Translation
"As for
, because there is no adequate way to catch, it would only seem to be powerful." > "Since there is no adequate way to catch (white's marked stones), only appears powerful."
適切な tekisetsu appropriate/adequate
受 take/get/catch
-方 method of (vb+方)
無い nai verbal negation
のと no to because of
一つには hitotsu ni wa for one thing/only
勢ひ as such on http://kobun.weblio.jp. Apparently equivalent of 気勢 fervour/ardour/vigour; 活力 vitality/energy/dynamism
-らう -rau my understanding (quite an overstatment) is based on this and a sentence found here. Basically -rau seems to bring a touch of inference/probability.
I'm not sure I go this one right. Since the meaning of the sentence seems to hang on who does not catch what (white cannot catch 56 or black cannot catch the white group is trying to cut off?), which is left unsaid and on the nuance brought by the use of hitotsu ni wa and -rau. After pondering grammar and the game record, it seems to me that the meaning here is that since black cannot expect to catch the white group at the bottom, his move at 56 appears powerful but actually isn't.
Translation
"As for
, because there is no adequate way to catch, it would only seem to be powerful." > "Since there is no adequate way to catch (white's marked stones), only appears powerful."-
John Fairbairn
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Re: (Just enough) Japanese to read classical commentaries
No: Seeing there was no suitable way to defend, Black 56 and so on was probably inevitable.I'm not sure I go this one right.
'to' is quotation with ellipsis of the verb.
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Shenoute
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Re: (Just enough) Japanese to read classical commentaries
Well, this one was a fail indeed. None of the dictionaries I consulted mentions "to defend" for ukeru...I guess this illustrates the shortcomings of my relaxed approach 
Many thanks to you both!
Many thanks to you both!
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Shenoute
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Re: (Just enough) Japanese to read classical commentaries
Thank you for the references. Yes, "to defend" seems to be an extension of the basic meaning "to receive". Incidentally the meaning "to parry" is given in a 1904 dictionary Japanese-French dictionary. That's the closest thing I've found.Marcel Grünauer wrote:Tangorin has "accept" and "receive": http://tangorin.com/general/%E5%8F%97Shenoute wrote:None of the dictionaries I consulted mentions "to defend" for ukeru
Sensei's Library also has an entry: http://senseis.xmp.net/?Ukeru and says that 受ける "means to answer an opponent's move or to defend in a responsive fashion. The sense of preventive defense is conveyed by mamoru."
Maybe a related word is 受付 [うけつけ] "reception desk, information desk". So it's a way of receiving a visitor who has already arrived.
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Shenoute
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Re: (Just enough) Japanese to read classical commentaries
* 黒六二は今度白からこの點に差込まれては收拾出来ない。
今度 kondo now, at the present time
-kara from
差込 short for 差し込む sashikomu to insert, to thrust/差し込み sashikomi insertion/ thrust)?
-mare contraction of -m syllable with are, sashikomi are > sashikomare
ては if; since
收拾 shuushu the act of picking up (meaning found in a 1904 dictionary), modern ones seem to translate it by "controlling, putting in order"
出来deki to happen
nai negation of aru
While the litteral translation seems ok (a dangerous thing to say), I have doubts about what is meant exactly by "there is no picking up". My best guess is that it means that white would not gain anything if he played at 62, i. e. that black's move here wasn't necessary.
Translation
"As for black 62, if there is thrust from white now at this point, picking up does not happen." > "
, if white thrusts here now, he does not gain anything."
edit. Typo corrected in the Japanese text.
今度 kondo now, at the present time
-kara from
差込 short for 差し込む sashikomu to insert, to thrust/差し込み sashikomi insertion/ thrust)?
-mare contraction of -m syllable with are, sashikomi are > sashikomare
ては if; since
收拾 shuushu the act of picking up (meaning found in a 1904 dictionary), modern ones seem to translate it by "controlling, putting in order"
出来deki to happen
nai negation of aru
While the litteral translation seems ok (a dangerous thing to say), I have doubts about what is meant exactly by "there is no picking up". My best guess is that it means that white would not gain anything if he played at 62, i. e. that black's move here wasn't necessary.
Translation
"As for black 62, if there is thrust from white now at this point, picking up does not happen." > "
, if white thrusts here now, he does not gain anything."edit. Typo corrected in the Japanese text.
Last edited by Shenoute on Mon Apr 11, 2016 11:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.