GnuGo

judicata · Post by **judicata** » Thu Apr 22, 2010 3:58 pm

I've played GnuGo (latest version on "10") several times and can never win. I've lost by .5 two or three times, but usually I'm down by 20.

I think I'm going to quit playing it for awhile so I don't pick up bad habits. That said, what does this pattern say, if anything, about my ranking? I need to play more games on KGS/IGS to get my ranking situated there, but I'm curious about what my experience with GnuGo says.

KGS 4 kyu · Post by **fwiffo** » Thu Apr 22, 2010 7:56 pm

What size board?

judicata · Post by **judicata** » Thu Apr 22, 2010 8:14 pm

Ah, important detail. 19x19. Also no handicap, 6.5 komi, me as Black.

I also must admit, the .5 losses were those when I tried to slow down and consider the whole board position--at least every so often.

xed_over · Post by **xed_over** » Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:05 pm

I thought GnuGo is rated about 6-8kyu these days, but I could find any stats anywhere.

CarlJung · Post by **CarlJung** » Fri Apr 23, 2010 12:15 am

judicata wrote:I'm curious about what my experience with GnuGo says.

It tells you to play more fast games with humans.

SoDesuNe · Post by **SoDesuNe** » Fri Apr 23, 2010 6:06 am

xed_over wrote:I thought GnuGo is rated about 6-8kyu these days, but I could find any stats anywhere.

I thought so, too. But it plays very passive compared to nowadays KGS-players, so it might be that you'll be able to constantly win against GnuGo but still are unable to stabalize a ~6k rating on KGS (like me).

That's why I would suggest playing against humans in the first place. They tend to play more exciting and by far more irrational, so you learn how to cope with that.

0.5 points loss reminds me of my games against MoGo... I still can't beat it!

karaklis · Post by **karaklis** » Fri Apr 23, 2010 6:27 am

Once you know how to beat GnuGo, it's not too difficult. Two tips:

- Stay away from local fights
- Try to establish big moyos

Engines like GnuGo profit from short time controls. If you take yourself more time, it is easier to win against it. On turn based servers (OGS) GnuGo is only 12-15k.

freegame · Post by **freegame** » Fri Apr 23, 2010 6:48 am

If nothing gets killed gnu go often wins by 0.5 point because the computer is great at counting during endgame, and GnuGo is programed to win, not to win by the biggest possible margin.

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Fri Apr 23, 2010 6:59 am

freegame wrote:If nothing gets killed gnu go often wins by 0.5 point because the computer is great at counting during endgame, and GnuGo is programed to win, not to win by the biggest possible margin.

Really? My understanding was that was true for Monte Carlo bots because of the way they choose moves on winning probabilities, but GnuGo isn't Monte Carlo and I haven't heard that before for GnuGo

freegame · Post by **freegame** » Fri Apr 23, 2010 9:09 am

hmmm maybe I was wrong. It has been a while since I was actually "interested" in bots (I had one running on KGS as well for some time)

judicata · Post by **judicata** » Fri Apr 23, 2010 10:29 am

I found this page on SL, which suggest the current version of GnuGo on KGS is about 6kyu. But the page is apparently out date, because the GnuGo bots listed haven't played in awhile, according to the KGS archives.

Well, whatever. It isn't a big deal, but I don't want to misrepresent my rank to others. I usually say I'm about 16kyu, but I'm beginning to believe I'm stronger (not just because of GnuGo, though). I'll just try to play more games this weekend and it will work itself out.

I also do not think my instincts are well-developed, so when I play fast and "instinctively" I am several stones weaker. I know this is true for everyone, but I think it may affect me more than average. If just discipline myself to think before each move, it is like I'm a different Go player.

It seems to me like I just need to play more games.

xed_over · Post by **xed_over** » Fri Apr 23, 2010 10:31 am

judicata wrote: It isn't a big deal, but I don't want to misrepresent my rank to others. I usually say I'm about 16kyu, but I'm beginning to believe I'm stronger (not just because of GnuGo, though).

yeah, if you can almost beat GnuGo in an even game, you're a lot stronger than 16kyu

Wildclaw · Post by **Wildclaw** » Fri Apr 23, 2010 5:14 pm

SoDesuNe wrote:I thought so, too. But it plays very passive compared to nowadays KGS-players,

GnuGo is passive, even among its fellow bots.

0.5 points loss reminds me of my games against MoGo... I still can't beat it!

If you are offline, and want to play against a bot, I highly recommend using MoGo, Fuego or any other Monte Carlo based bot. While they usually play quite strange openings that are rather influence oriented, they are far superior in the middle game compared to Gnugo. And when I say superior, I don't just mean in skill, but in their habits, shapes and general ideas of balance.

You will learn far less bad habits from a Monte Carlo based bot than you will from Gnu Go.

- Stay away from local fights
- Try to establish big moyos

Disagree on this. In fact, starting fights is one way to get ahead vs GnuGo, because it tends to back off, tenuki or fail to consider the strategic consequences in fights.

As for establishing big moyos. While there is some truth in that, it is just one way of exploiting the passiveness of GnuGo, and generally not the best way in my opinion.

karaklis · Post by **karaklis** » Sat Apr 24, 2010 3:04 pm

judicata wrote:I also do not think my instincts are well-developed, so when I play fast and "instinctively" I am several stones weaker. I know this is true for everyone, but I think it may affect me more than average.

Well, I was 6-7k on KGS end of January when I played last there. Recently I have reactivated an old account to experiment with fast/blitz games (10 min) though actually I dislike playing blitz. Doing this my rank got settled at 10k.

Wildclaw wrote:
- Stay away from local fights
- Try to establish big moyos

Disagree on this. In fact, starting fights is one way to get ahead vs GnuGo, because it tends to back off, tenuki or fail to consider the strategic consequences in fights.

As for establishing big moyos. While there is some truth in that, it is just one way of exploiting the passiveness of GnuGo, and generally not the best way in my opinion.

Interesting. You are some 6 stones stronger than me, maybe this is the reason you are stronger at local fights than the program. When I tried that, I got outplayed all the time, so that's why I discovered that it is weak at moyos. I'd like to experiment with new tactics, so maybe you'd like to share your ideas?
This is the way I usually beat GnuGo.

judicata · Post by **judicata** » Sat Apr 24, 2010 4:23 pm

karaklis wrote:Well, I was 6-7k on KGS end of January when I played last there. Recently I have reactivated an old account to experiment with fast/blitz games (10 min) though actually I dislike playing blitz. Doing this my rank got settled at 10k.

I guess it is also a little different with GnuGo, because it plays the same whether I play fast or slow. At least in blitz games, both players have to play fast. Just a thought.

Life In 19x19

GnuGo

GnuGo

Re: GnuGo

Re: GnuGo

Re: GnuGo

Re: GnuGo

Re: GnuGo

Re: GnuGo

Re: GnuGo

Re: GnuGo

Re: GnuGo

Re: GnuGo

Re: GnuGo

Re: GnuGo

Re: GnuGo

Re: GnuGo