in korean, it's literally called something like "pinch". but i don't know what english speakers would call it. not really a wedge... worst case, i'll just say "pinch" or maybe "move"
I think of attachment (direct contact with the enemy) is one property found in multiple moves: hané, push, block, turn, clamp, cross-cut (attaching to 2 enemy stones), first-line throw in (attaching to 2 enemy stones), wedge (attaching to 2 enemy stones); some throw-in can attach to 3 enemy stones; etc.
When you say it's pinch in Korean, can it also be interpreted as a squeeze?
If this "works", you can call it a tesuji.
gennan: oh, angle wedge... used in some books ( Fujisawa's Basic Tesujis... )
Re: what to call this move?
Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:17 am
by Uberdude
Marcel, I just woke up so maybe I'm being dumb, but in your first problem how does atekomi succeed if White just ataris on second line then connect.
Re: what to call this move?
Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:23 am
by Yakago
I'm not sure which of the problems is the first. They seem to shuffle when you start
Re: what to call this move?
Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:11 am
by Uberdude
OGS problems also have this shuffle and rotate and flip colours bugfeature but it makes sharing and discussing problems next to impossible. There are many Reddit posts along the lines "help me with this problem plz, it says if black plays c1 White D1 kills but what about a2!?" to which the baffled audience respond "but it's White to play you idiot!", "What do you mean c1, the problem is in the top right corner and White starts t17". Etc.
A solution would be to encode the problem id and rotation etc in the URL for the user to copy (and have a share link), which with modern browsers you can set from JavaScript without causing a page reload.
Call it what it is: both a "connection" and a "threat to cut".
I do not care about a traditional shape name, which does not say what the move's meanings are.
Re: what to call this move?
Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:37 am
by John Fairbairn
Call it what it is: both a "connection" and a "threat to cut".
I do not care about a traditional shape name, which does not say what the move's meanings are.
I agree it is sensible and best to use your English, as above, to describe the move. But you are wrong (as usual) about the "traditional" name - I assume you mean "Japanese" atekomi, which does clearly imply what its meaning is. Look up atekomi in an ordinary Japanese dictionary to see what nuances the word brings to a Japanese go player. Furthermore, it's not a "shape name," it's a "move name."
Re: what to call this move?
Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:42 am
by Yakago
John Fairbairn wrote:
Call it what it is: both a "connection" and a "threat to cut".
I do not care about a traditional shape name, which does not say what the move's meanings are.
I agree it is sensible and best to use your English, as above, to describe the move. But you are wrong (as usual) about the "traditional" name - I assume you mean "Japanese" atekomi, which does clearly imply what its meaning is. Look up atekomi in an ordinary Japanese dictionary to see what nuances the word brings to a Japanese go player. Furthermore, it's not a "shape name," it's a "move name."
In the context of a narrative or a conversation, having a name for the move makes sense imo.
'... when black played this angle wedge...'
'... maybe you could play an angle wedge here...'
It's difficult to talk about a 'simultaneous connection and threat to cut'. Then we go back to calling everything a 'move'. I.e. no 'hane' 'attachment' 'approach' etc.
I think that would diminish the way we talk about go
Re: what to call this move?
Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:06 am
by Kirby
John Fairbairn wrote:
But you are wrong (as usual) about the "traditional" name
A bit too strongly put, no? :-p
Anyway, I can see both points here: to a non-native speaker, the traditional Japanese name has little meaning. same with the Korean term - otherwise, why am I translating at all? And to native speakers, these terms do have meaning and nuance.
The audience consists of English speakers, so I’ll aim for English terminology except for widely adopted terms like atari, joseki, etc.
Thanks to all of you for your input. This thread turned out to be more interesting than I anticipated.
Re: what to call this move?
Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:14 am
by Kirby
Marcel Grünauer wrote:So what is the Korean term for that move, that translates to "pinch"?
찝다 (jjipda)
In a Korean English Go term dictionary, I also saw this conveyed as “choke”
Re: what to call this move?
Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:43 am
by Uberdude
For the video subtitles where brevity is important I might say "white wedges in", "white defends by wedging in" etc, which has an implied "wedging in to the kosumi" but that'd be too long and I wouldn't want to use the term kosumi for that audience, and 'diagonal move' is ever longer.
Re: what to call this move?
Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:48 am
by gowan
I thought there had been consensus in previous discussions about go terminology that sometimes keeping the Japanese (or Korean or Chinese) word for something could be preferred to awkward, clumsy English phrases, for example hane. In this case "angle wedge" still needs explanation. Of course, too, there are subtle but still important distinctions that are lost in English versions. I hear players using hane andosae indiscriminately. Some of these difficulties arise because the "translator" doesn't fully understand subtle meanings of the Japanese words.
Re: what to call this move?
Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:05 am
by Kirby
gowan wrote:I thought there had been consensus in previous discussions
Consensus on L19? That’s cause for celebration!
Anyway, to your point, it’s not clear to me that “atekomi” is self explanatory to this audience.
