Hi,
It has been recommended several time to chose a fuseki, and stick to it for at least 3 to 6 monthes to improve. I never did, and played various things depending of my mood (but never any well studied one)
I'd like to try this now.
So, which one would you recommand to try for a 4k KGS, and why ?
having a fuseki of choice
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Loons
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Re: having a fuseki of choice
I think playing a fuseki often/being familiar with it gives you a bit of a home ground advantage as black. Like, if you are heavily into Chinese, it can be easy for you to pick up an advantage as black against someone who's not really familiar with it.
The other reasoning for picking a fuseki often is if you don't understand it well / have trouble against it, you can learn its ins and outs trying it yourself.
The other reasoning for picking a fuseki often is if you don't understand it well / have trouble against it, you can learn its ins and outs trying it yourself.
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shapenaji
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Re: having a fuseki of choice
Well, depends on what you feel your strengths/weaknesses are:
(These are just some primary ones that I play, look em up on Sensei's for more info)
Ni-rensei (2 star points and then approach a corner, bypass much of the opening and jump into fighting)
San-rensei (moyo-style... but it teaches you to be comfortable with your opponent invading. The 3rd star point does NOT make that side territory!
)
Traditional Japanese (builds into shusaku, great for learning 3-4 joseki, so many of them can be used)
Low Chinese (I like this one more than San-ren-sei, feels more powerful, although it's less flexible. Think of it like a San-rensei that is harder to jump into...)
High Chinese (Puff, Puff, pass... Honestly though, I don't play this one, but my feeling is that it's more like a San-Ren-Sei)
Kobayashi (very territorial, and the anti-Kobayashi stuff teaches you some good strategies for reducing/controlling frameworks)
Mini Chinese (Lots of fighting in this one, and big moyos... still a very popular pro fuseki)
The Great Wall (I happen to think this is a very good teacher of what can be accomplished with central power. It's not easy to refute at all.)
(These are just some primary ones that I play, look em up on Sensei's for more info)
Ni-rensei (2 star points and then approach a corner, bypass much of the opening and jump into fighting)
San-rensei (moyo-style... but it teaches you to be comfortable with your opponent invading. The 3rd star point does NOT make that side territory!
)Traditional Japanese (builds into shusaku, great for learning 3-4 joseki, so many of them can be used)
Low Chinese (I like this one more than San-ren-sei, feels more powerful, although it's less flexible. Think of it like a San-rensei that is harder to jump into...)
High Chinese (Puff, Puff, pass... Honestly though, I don't play this one, but my feeling is that it's more like a San-Ren-Sei)
Kobayashi (very territorial, and the anti-Kobayashi stuff teaches you some good strategies for reducing/controlling frameworks)
Mini Chinese (Lots of fighting in this one, and big moyos... still a very popular pro fuseki)
The Great Wall (I happen to think this is a very good teacher of what can be accomplished with central power. It's not easy to refute at all.)
Tactics yes, Tact no...
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Solomon
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Re: having a fuseki of choice
It doesn't make much sense to recommend someone a fuseki based on their rank. Instead, ask yourself...
Would you like to be Bob the Moyo Builder?
Do you tend to pick the well-rounded character in video games, like Ryu or James Bond?
Do you just want the money right away?
Do you want your opponent to feel uncomfortable before the 5th move?
Do you like subways?
Are you on a particular stone fortification site in China?
Would you like to be Bob the Moyo Builder?
Do you tend to pick the well-rounded character in video games, like Ryu or James Bond?
Do you just want the money right away?
Do you want your opponent to feel uncomfortable before the 5th move?
Do you like subways?
Are you on a particular stone fortification site in China?
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lorill
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Re: having a fuseki of choice
Thanks for the replies so far!
I don't really know my weaknesses, which probably means that they're present in every aspect of my game
I've always prefered playing as white to avoid this choice actually, I find it easier to disturb black's plan than to forge my own. As black, i've often played two hoshi + approach, in a complete internet-style.
I'm not fond of bob the moyo builder. I'd rather keep more flexible options.
I don't really know my weaknesses, which probably means that they're present in every aspect of my game
I've always prefered playing as white to avoid this choice actually, I find it easier to disturb black's plan than to forge my own. As black, i've often played two hoshi + approach, in a complete internet-style.
I'm not fond of bob the moyo builder. I'd rather keep more flexible options.
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Solomon
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Re: having a fuseki of choice
lorill wrote:The "subway" one looks like one I could like. Does it have a name to search for it on sensei's ?
http://senseis.xmp.net/?KobayashiFuseki
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Harleqin
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Re: having a fuseki of choice
I think that the "subway" moniker was applied to Kobayashi's style, not this fuseki.
A good system naturally covers all corner cases without further effort.
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gowan
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Re: having a fuseki of choice
It was the late Kato Masao Honorary Oza who recommended playing one opening repeatedly. He did it early in his pro career. Of course he already knew and understood all these openings better than we do. One important thing is that you can't count on being able to play some of these openings because White can spoil them (e.g. san-ren-sei, chinese, mini-chinese, Kobayashi I and II) Some people follow this single opening approach because they don't understand basic opening principles . To get beyond SDK level you have to be more flexible.
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lorill
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Re: having a fuseki of choice
gowan wrote:One important thing is that you can't count on being able to play some of these openings because White can spoil them (e.g. san-ren-sei, chinese, mini-chinese, Kobayashi I and II)
Sure, that's part of the fun.
Re: having a fuseki of choice
even best fuseki is bad with wrong style and tactic. If you like moyo dont play territorial or vice versa. Example i was playing mini chinese and i lose more than 70% games... when i start diffrent opening its changes to 80% wons.
sorry for my english - im Marsian
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fwiffo
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Re: having a fuseki of choice
I don't know about sticking with it for 3-6 months, but for 20 games in a row (or more if you feel like it), I think it's worth it. Some fuseki have well developed pro variations that are almost half-board or even whole-board joseki. For instance, I play Orthodox (the "well-rounded" opening in Araban's post) a lot, and by studying pro games with that opening, I've learned several strong follow-up sequences, and how to punish my opponents when they deviate. And a lot of the knowledge is applicable even in situations when that opening doesn't happen.
I like Orthodox because it's balanced, but also because it's well developed. It's been a popular opening for a long time, and it's the #1 most popular in the past few years (partly because it's the fall-back position if your opponent blocks the mini-Chinese.)
Kobayashi is also pretty easy to understand, and is also well-developed. The purpose is straightforward, and the associated joseki are not too scary. And mini-Chinese and micro-Chinese are the hot trend, so there's a lot of current pro games from top players you can study with that opening.
I like Orthodox because it's balanced, but also because it's well developed. It's been a popular opening for a long time, and it's the #1 most popular in the past few years (partly because it's the fall-back position if your opponent blocks the mini-Chinese.)
Kobayashi is also pretty easy to understand, and is also well-developed. The purpose is straightforward, and the associated joseki are not too scary. And mini-Chinese and micro-Chinese are the hot trend, so there's a lot of current pro games from top players you can study with that opening.
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amnal
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Re: having a fuseki of choice
lorill wrote:Hi,
It has been recommended several time to chose a fuseki, and stick to it for at least 3 to 6 monthes to improve. I never did, and played various things depending of my mood (but never any well studied one)
I'd like to try this now.
So, which one would you recommand to try for a 4k KGS, and why ?
For a start, I agree with others that 3-6 months is a poor choice of timescale. Maybe 20 games or something, but I don't think there's a great benefit in using it *that* exclusively.
Secondly, I highly recommend not putting any effort into getting 'recommended' openings. Just pick *any* opening and try it - maybe start with each of the ones that Araban has suggested. If you think that it doesn't suit you (the 'I am not a moyo player' thing, or whatever), ignore that thought and play it anyway. You'll learn something new. If you think you already know about it, play it anyway, you'll learn something new. Compare your results with pro games, look at what's different, see where people deviate. Personally, I think it's a bad idea to believe that you're qualified to know what you do or don't understand
If you just want ideas to look up, there are various interesting openings. Senseis probably has articles on the Kobayashi opening shapes, the orthodox fuseki, the chinese shapes and the sanrensei, double 3-3 (especially as white). Other 'known' openings that are less well known include, for example, 4-3 facing 3-3 - a fighting territory shape.
Finally, there are also important local shapes to think about like playing a 4-3 as white facing black's 4-4 point and inviting the approach - traditionally bad, but not actually bad. Similarly, inviting the taisha or avalanche joseki will teach you something new. These 'openings' mostly depend on a single corner (though you can try to set up the others to help), but are still important to think about and will teach you a lot. Ignoring a corner, or multiple corners, to approach the opponent is a good way to learn a proactive stance to tweak the board to your needs.
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fwiffo
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Re: having a fuseki of choice
amnal wrote:Secondly, I highly recommend not putting any effort into getting 'recommended' openings. Just pick *any* opening and try it - maybe start with each of the ones that Araban has suggested.
The only point I would disagree with here is that there is a benefit to picking one opening which is popular with pros in that there are lots of games to study. If you pick the "great wall" opening or something else strange, you won't have any games to study.
Of course, you should play what you want to play and have fun.