Small avalanche variation refutation

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otenki
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Small avalanche variation refutation

Post by otenki »

Some time ago I had this pattern floating in my head. And I was tring to read out different variations. And I came up to a variation where I could not find a good answer to.

First of all let me say i'm not obsessed with joseki or anything, I just am intrested in this from a shape/reading perspective. :-)

Ok I think most of us are familiar with:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$-----------
$$|..........
$$|...870....
$$|..916.....
$$|..54......
$$|..32......
$$|..........
$$|..........
$$|..........[/go]


Howhever I wonder why i cannot do this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$-----------
$$|..........
$$|...OXO....
$$|..XXO2....
$$|..XO1.....
$$|..XO3.....
$$|..........
$$|..........
$$|..........[/go]


If I read deeper the result is always good for black in this case and the two stones cannot be captured.
Of course my reading still is very limited so does anyone know the correct refutation ?

Probably something very easy. :-)

Thanks,
Otenki
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Uberdude
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Re: small avelanche variation refutation

Post by Uberdude »

otenki wrote:
Probably something very easy. :-)


Yes, extend from atari. The fight looks fine for white to me.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$-----------
$$|..........
$$|...OXO....
$$|..XXO2....
$$|..XO1.....
$$|..XO3.....
$$|...4......
$$|..........
$$|..........[/go]
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otenki
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Re: small avelanche variation refutation

Post by otenki »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$-----------
$$|....8.....
$$|..7OXO....
$$|..XXO2....
$$|..XO1.....
$$|..XO3.....
$$|.9645.....
$$|..........
$$|..........[/go]


When I read deeper it looks good for black ...
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Uberdude
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Re: small avelanche variation refutation

Post by Uberdude »

I don't think that is good for black. White can close off the left side so may make territory there (whereas in joseki it is black who has big potential on the left) and black's 3 stones in the centre are weak.
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Re: small avelanche variation refutation

Post by logan »

This is the move I learned.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm1
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , .
$$ | . . 3 X O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 2 1 4 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ ----------------------[/go]


Then Black can start some fighting whenever.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm6
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . Y . . 4 . . . .
$$ | . . X O . 2 3 . . . .
$$ | . . X O . 1 . . . , .
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O X O . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ ----------------------[/go]


However, this is also fine. But I think it's played less -- whether for good or bad.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm1
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 7 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X O 5 . . . . , .
$$ | . . 3 X O 6 . . . . .
$$ | . . . 2 1 4 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ ----------------------[/go]
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Re: small avelanche variation refutation

Post by logan »

Uberdude wrote:I don't think that is good for black. White can close off the left side so may make territory there (whereas in joseki it is black who has big potential on the left) and black's 3 stones in the centre are weak.

Ditto, I personally don't like the result for Black, because I'm not sure what those center stones are doing. Someone may argue that it could be used for special circumstances, but my first thought is whether another variation would simply fit better in most circumstances that this would be good for Black.
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Re: small avelanche variation refutation

Post by otenki »

Ok so it was not my reading, just my judgement on the position :-)
Thanks for the explanation guys, it makes sense.

Cheers,
Otenki
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Re: small avelanche variation refutation

Post by lovelove »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm1
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X O . 6 . . . , .
$$ | . . 3 X O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 2 1 4 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ ----------------------[/go]

Old Japanese joseki, white thick. I don't remember the exact source, but I'm very sure about this.
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Re: small avelanche variation refutation

Post by logan »

otenki wrote:Ok so it was not my reading, just my judgement on the position :-)
Thanks for the explanation guys, it makes sense.

Cheers,
Otenki

Keep up the good work otenki! :tmbup:
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skydyr
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Re: small avelanche variation refutation

Post by skydyr »

The shape looks similar to the fight that developed from the small-avalanche double hane in my malkovich game against Deflow. It's not exactly the same, but might be worth looking at because it features the same general idea of a crosscut fight stemming from it.
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: small avelanche variation refutation

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

otenki wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$-----------
$$|....8.....
$$|..7OXO....
$$|..XXO2....
$$|..XO1.....
$$|..XO3.....
$$|.9645.....
$$|..........
$$|..........[/go]


When I read deeper it looks good for black ...


I don't know that 6 is best for white in your diagram. It commits to one side, and does not look for lots of liberties. Maybe 6 like this is better. It threatens both black groups indirectly, and maximizes white's liberties.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$-----------
$$|....0.....
$$|..7OXO....
$$|..XXO2....
$$|..XO1..a..
$$|..XO3.9...
$$|...45.....
$$|...68.....
$$|..........[/go]


FWIW, even 10 may be premature. It may be better around 'a'.
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Re: small avelanche variation refutation

Post by Bill Spight »

otenki wrote:Ok so it was not my reading, just my judgement on the position :-)
Thanks for the explanation guys, it makes sense.

Cheers,
Otenki


Not so fast. :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm1 Joseki
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X O . 6 . . . , .
$$ | . . 3 X O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 2 1 4 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ ----------------------[/go]


Since you missed the hane at 5, which threatens double atari, you cannot say that your reading was OK. :)

And yes, keep up the good work! :)
The Adkins Principle:
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Re: small avelanche variation refutation

Post by lovelove »

Bill Spight wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm1 Joseki
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X O . 6 . . . , .
$$ | . . 3 X O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 2 1 4 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ ----------------------[/go]

That is no more joseki. White is thick.
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Re: Small avalanche variation refutation

Post by emeraldemon »

Not directly relevant, but I always think of the small avalanche as this move:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Small avalanche
$$-----------
$$|..........
$$|....,.....
$$|...16.....
$$|..54......
$$|..32......
$$|...7......
$$|..........
$$|..........[/go]


I'm not sure if this other move is also "small avalanche". Is anything without the the extension the small avalanche?


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Medium Avalanche?
$$-----------
$$|..........
$$|....7.....
$$|...16.....
$$|..54......
$$|..32......
$$|..........
$$|..........
$$|..........[/go]
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Re: Small avalanche variation refutation

Post by SmoothOper »

emeraldemon wrote:Not directly relevant, but I always think of the small avalanche as this move:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Small avalanche
$$-----------
$$|..........
$$|....,.....
$$|...16.....
$$|..54......
$$|..32......
$$|...7......
$$|..........
$$|..........[/go]


I'm not sure if this other move is also "small avalanche". Is anything without the the extension the small avalanche?


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Medium Avalanche?
$$-----------
$$|..........
$$|....7.....
$$|...16.....
$$|..54......
$$|..32......
$$|..........
$$|..........
$$|..........[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Large avalanche
$$-----------
$$|..........
$$|....,.....
$$|...16.....
$$|..54......
$$|..32......
$$|..78......
$$|...9......
$$|..........[/go]


One of the plays that I had learned if you don't want to play out the full avalanche, but still want an even result is, which seems similar to your problem, but black has given up a stone.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Small avalanche with early opt out by white.
$$-----------
$$|..........
$$|...8,.....
$$|..916.....
$$|..54......
$$|..32......
$$|...7......
$$|..........
$$|..........[/go]
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