A question about the famous game, on which the Yasunari Kawabata's novel (Master of Go) is based:
At one point when the game was adjourned, Kitani Minoru played a sealed move. (The idea of a sealed move is in general that the opponent cannot see his move and therefore cannot use the time when the game is paused for thinking. Likewise, the player making the move himself cannot use the pause time for thinking either, because he does not know his opponents response.)
However, in that famous game, it is said that the sealed move of Kitani Minoru was a forcing move which would not be played at that point in a non-adjourned game. This is at least what Shusai claimed (according to Kawabata's novel), the purpose of Kitani being to unduly gain thinking time. Even though this is not against the rules, it can be considered as a trick against fair-play.
But others say that this move indeed provides some advantages and would be played also in a non-adjourned game.
I read the novel, looked carefully at the move but could not come to a conclusion which opinion is true. Does someone know more about it? Was that forcing move really a trick move to gain time or not?
Honinbo Shusai vs Kitani Minoru
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p2501
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Re: Honinbo Shusai vs Kitani Minoru
Afaik Shusai later admitted that the move was well timed. So you could say if it is the best move, then Kitani had to play it. But it was a forcing move, so Kitani could have used the extra time, planning his next move.
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Koroviev
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Re: Honinbo Shusai vs Kitani Minoru
Well I suppose the implication is that playing ANY forcing move as a sealed move is gamesmanship, as it means you know your opponent's response and get free thinking time.
Regarding the individual move, can you post a diagram?
Regarding the individual move, can you post a diagram?
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p2501
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Re: Honinbo Shusai vs Kitani Minoru
Though you could say that Kitani didn't play it to gain thinking time and rather just played the best move. Depends on whether you look only at the outcome or consider the intent of the play.Koroviev wrote:Well I suppose the implication is that playing ANY forcing move as a sealed move is gamesmanship, as it means you know your opponent's response and get free thinking time.
Regarding the individual move, can you post a diagram?
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daal
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Re: Honinbo Shusai vs Kitani Minoru
There is an extensive page about the game on SL here: http://www.senseis.xmp.net/?KawabatasMasterOfGo
Here is the position:
Here is the position:
Patience, grasshopper.
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entropi
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Re: Honinbo Shusai vs Kitani Minoru
It really looks like a move that could better be saved for later as a ko threat.
But if Shusai himself admits it is well timed...
But if Shusai himself admits it is well timed...
If you say no, Elwood and I will come here for breakfast, lunch, and dinner every day of the week.
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p2501
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Re: Honinbo Shusai vs Kitani Minoru
Thats only from memory though and I can't quite recall from where...entropi wrote:But if Shusai himself admits it is well timed...
I don't have my books at hand now as I am at work atm.
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Uberdude
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Re: Honinbo Shusai vs Kitani Minoru
It is well timed as it is 2 points double sente. If black plays a gote move elsewhere then white will hane connect in sente. Though I am not sure, given that, why black didn't play it even earlier, e.g. before p10 jump. Maybe it is because it is not absolute sente for white on the corner (just a ko) so then black would ignore and jump again to n10, whereas now the temperature of the rest of the board has dropped enough that it really is white's sente.
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drmwc
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Re: Honinbo Shusai vs Kitani Minoru
To clarify, suppose the shape in uberdude's variation happens, and B plays the forcing move and W answers:
W 2 is needed to live. Now W has unconditionally gained compared to the game since now 3 is B gote whereas in the game it is sente.
Hence B's move is definitely well timed.
W 2 is needed to live. Now W has unconditionally gained compared to the game since now 3 is B gote whereas in the game it is sente.
Hence B's move is definitely well timed.
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Bill Spight
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Re: Honinbo Shusai vs Kitani Minoru
Kitani took a sente as his sealed move, and Shusai was enraged when play resumed and the move was unsealed. Traditionally, the higher ranked player had made the last play before an adjournment.
In the 1970s I read an interview of Kitani in a Japanese go magazine. When asked about the move, Kitani replied, "Well, he answered it," and chuckled.
Now, it may well have been the best move at that point. But I doubt that that was why it was played. As a double sente, what the move gains is infinitesimal. (See http://senseis.xmp.net/?GoInfinitesimals ) Instead of leaving a Black sente against the White group, it leaves an ambiguous play (See http://senseis.xmp.net/?AmbiguousPosition ), such that White does not have to answer a Black descent. White gains a tempo in any possible contest to get the last 1 point play. (In the actual game, Black could have gotten the last 1 point play, but let White get it anyway. Doing so did not cost anything in the end.)
Except possibly for thinking time, I do not believe that Kitani's ploy made a difference in the score. In the SGF file below I have assumed that the game would have continued as in the actual game, except that White gets the sente against the corner before Black plays the sente against the White group. Then I play out the game from the start of the 1 point plays as the players did, except for the difference in the sente, and Black gets the last 1 point play, as he should. (Letting White get it would not have affected the score.) The end result is the same.
In the 1970s I read an interview of Kitani in a Japanese go magazine. When asked about the move, Kitani replied, "Well, he answered it," and chuckled.
Now, it may well have been the best move at that point. But I doubt that that was why it was played. As a double sente, what the move gains is infinitesimal. (See http://senseis.xmp.net/?GoInfinitesimals ) Instead of leaving a Black sente against the White group, it leaves an ambiguous play (See http://senseis.xmp.net/?AmbiguousPosition ), such that White does not have to answer a Black descent. White gains a tempo in any possible contest to get the last 1 point play. (In the actual game, Black could have gotten the last 1 point play, but let White get it anyway. Doing so did not cost anything in the end.)
Except possibly for thinking time, I do not believe that Kitani's ploy made a difference in the score. In the SGF file below I have assumed that the game would have continued as in the actual game, except that White gets the sente against the corner before Black plays the sente against the White group. Then I play out the game from the start of the 1 point plays as the players did, except for the difference in the sente, and Black gets the last 1 point play, as he should. (Letting White get it would not have affected the score.) The end result is the same.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.