hey guys, i apologize for posting so many topics lately but i am simply easily confused lol
okay so i have been working on the double hane a lot today. i am pretty sure i understand almost every variation in which black fights back EXCEPT this one. i cannot work it out on my own. im not sure if i made an error before i got to the last point or not.
the double hane
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cherryhill
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ez4u
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Re: the double hane
Where are you getting all these moves from? What is the explanation for the White and Black moves that you show? If they are your own, what is your thinking behind them?
Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
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"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21
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Alguien
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Re: the double hane
I don't understand white's moves from E7 forward.
I've never played a double hane where being cut didn't give me an advantage.
I've never played a double hane where being cut didn't give me an advantage.
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EdLee
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cherrhill, eventually, B has to go back and fix the cut (a).
Otherwise, after W (a) atari, W will either capture the lone
stone,
or the two
stones -- prove to your satisfactory this is true:
But this is only for the local situation. How B and W will play depends on the global board,
the big picture.
The problem with your analysis in your SGF is you have no global context: starting from your very first move,
(G9 atari).
Same questions as ez4u and Alguien -- why does B play (G9 atari) at all ? To answer this question,
we must look at the entire board, which is missing from your SGF.
Otherwise, after W (a) atari, W will either capture the lone
stone,or the two
stones -- prove to your satisfactory this is true:But this is only for the local situation. How B and W will play depends on the global board,
the big picture.
The problem with your analysis in your SGF is you have no global context: starting from your very first move,
(G9 atari).Same questions as ez4u and Alguien -- why does B play
(G9 atari) at all ? To answer this question,we must look at the entire board, which is missing from your SGF.
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snorri
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Re:
EdLee wrote:Same questions as ez4u and Alguien -- why does B play
we must look at the entire board, which is missing from your SGF.
Well, although we would like to see a game, I don't think the local analysis is out of the question here. We're not throwing away all our joseki books just because they rarely show whole board context, after all.
because see an atari, play an atari. I'm guessing the OP's just trying to figure out if this double hane is reasonable to play for white. To determine that, I think it makes sense to consider responses an opponent at that level might make, not just the strongest ones. How else are you going to know they are not strong, if studying on your own?-
Sverre
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Re: the double hane
Don't play atari all the time, just make your stones safe and don't fix Black's weaknesses for him. 'a' is more useful than 'b'. Black is cut into two weak groups.
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HermanHiddema
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Re: the double hane
Locally, I would expect black to start like this:
This fixes a lot of the weakness of black's group.
Then next, there are a lot of options, including:
Defend at a
Cut with b-c-d-e
Cut with c-b-f
Tenuki
All of which depends on how strong black and white are in adjacent areas and how urgent it is to play elsewhere.
This fixes a lot of the weakness of black's group.
Then next, there are a lot of options, including:
Defend at a
Cut with b-c-d-e
Cut with c-b-f
Tenuki
All of which depends on how strong black and white are in adjacent areas and how urgent it is to play elsewhere.
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snorri
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Re: the double hane
Sverre wrote:Don't play atari all the time, just make your stones safe and don't fix Black's weaknesses for him. 'a' is more useful than 'b'. Black is cut into two weak groups.
You beat me to it.
In the position above and original SGF is normally a bad atari. It helps white and it removes the option of playing the other atari at 
later should that move become useful later. It's possible for most DDKs who have the atari reflex to gain a couple of stones by avoiding most ataris that don't instantly capture important stones.In the OP's variation:
This also a bad atari, partly because it is not possible to capture the black stones right away, but for another reason, too. I can understand this reflex a little, too, because maybe you've learned that giving black an empty triangle at 'a' is sometimes good. But there is a big difference between this diagram and, for example, josekis where forcing an empty triangle is common:
In the above joseki, white can't cut with
. In the earlier variation, the cut is possible and important, and so defending as Sverre saying just by getting more liberties for white leaves black with a problem: black has weakness in several spots and it is hard to continue.So my question for cherryhill now is: are you comfortable with white's prospects after seeing the position in Sverre's suggestion over does it still look like an even fight to you?