As I understand it, under traditional Japanese rules, eye's in seki are not counted.
However in this position from a recent game, it appears white has two real eyes. One is what appears to be a "false" eye, but since black can't force white to fill it, then is white's group considered to be independently alive, so white's two points count and black's one doesn't?
Is that the correct way to score this using traditional Japanese rules?
scoring eyes in seki question
-
xed_over
- Oza
- Posts: 2264
- Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2010 11:51 am
- Has thanked: 1179 times
- Been thanked: 553 times
-
Kirby
- Honinbo
- Posts: 9553
- Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 6:04 pm
- GD Posts: 0
- KGS: Kirby
- Tygem: 커비라고해
- Has thanked: 1583 times
- Been thanked: 1707 times
Re: scoring eyes in seki question
There are different versions of Japanese rules, but I think they're in agreement in this regard: stones in seki don't have points for the eyes.
See Diagram 15 from this page:
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~wjh/go/rules/Japanese.html
In the case of your diagram, since the dame is not filled, the groups are in seki, and neither side has points for the eyes.
Here's a link to some "more official" text:
http://www.nihonkiin.or.jp/joho/kiyaku/kiyaku08.htm
Bottom picture is similar situation, and still, no points.
See Diagram 15 from this page:
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~wjh/go/rules/Japanese.html
In the position in Diagram 15, the black and white groups are both alive, but in seki because of the dame at A, so neither side has any territory. A move at A is needed to make Black's and White's eyes into territory.
In the case of your diagram, since the dame is not filled, the groups are in seki, and neither side has points for the eyes.
Here's a link to some "more official" text:
http://www.nihonkiin.or.jp/joho/kiyaku/kiyaku08.htm
Bottom picture is similar situation, and still, no points.
be immersed
-
xed_over
- Oza
- Posts: 2264
- Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2010 11:51 am
- Has thanked: 1179 times
- Been thanked: 553 times
Re: scoring eyes in seki question
Kirby wrote:There are different versions of Japanese rules, but I think they're in agreement in this regard: stones in seki don't have points for the eyes.
See Diagram 15 from this page:
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~wjh/go/rules/Japanese.htmlIn the position in Diagram 15, the black and white groups are both alive, but in seki because of the dame at A, so neither side has any territory. A move at A is needed to make Black's and White's eyes into territory.
In the case of your diagram, since the dame is not filled, the groups are in seki, and neither side has points for the eyes.
but that diagram doesn't make any sense to me. either side could fill the dame without loss because neither group is capturable.
there must be a typo in that diagram, no?
-
macelee
- Lives in sente
- Posts: 928
- Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2012 1:46 pm
- Rank: 5 dan
- GD Posts: 0
- KGS: macelee
- Location: UK
- Has thanked: 72 times
- Been thanked: 480 times
- Contact:
Re: scoring eyes in seki question
Slightly modifying the original diagram. This is again a seki. Whether or not capturing the black stone at 'a' should not matter. But if white does, it gains extra points in Japanese rule. How reasonable is that?
My question is: in a real game, is the
stone removed from the seki and count as a dead stone?-
snorri
- Lives in sente
- Posts: 706
- Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2010 8:15 am
- GD Posts: 846
- Has thanked: 252 times
- Been thanked: 251 times
Re: scoring eyes in seki question
macelee wrote:
Slightly modifying the original diagram. This is again a seki. Whether or not capturing the black stone at 'a' should not matter. But if white does, it gains extra points in Japanese rule. How reasonable is that?
My question is: in a real game, is the
Since white can capture
in hypothetical play, white doesn't need to play a move to capture it. It would be removed from the board during scoring, the same way that 
would be. The fact that this is in a seki doesn't change that. My informal sense of Japanese rules is that in the original position there are no points in the seki.-
Kirby
- Honinbo
- Posts: 9553
- Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 6:04 pm
- GD Posts: 0
- KGS: Kirby
- Tygem: 커비라고해
- Has thanked: 1583 times
- Been thanked: 1707 times
Re: scoring eyes in seki question
macelee wrote:
Slightly modifying the original diagram. This is again a seki. Whether or not capturing the black stone at 'a' should not matter. But if white does, it gains extra points in Japanese rule. How reasonable is that?
My question is: in a real game, is the
My interpretation is that you must actually remove the stone to get the point, just like you must play the dame in the example I gave in order to get points.
be immersed
-
xed_over
- Oza
- Posts: 2264
- Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2010 11:51 am
- Has thanked: 1179 times
- Been thanked: 553 times
Re: scoring eyes in seki question
Kirby wrote:macelee wrote:
Slightly modifying the original diagram. This is again a seki. Whether or not capturing the black stone at 'a' should not matter. But if white does, it gains extra points in Japanese rule. How reasonable is that?
My question is: in a real game, is the
My interpretation is that you must actually remove the stone to get the point, just like you must play the dame in the example I gave in order to get points.
Yeah, but according to the links you shared earlier, the rules say that the stones can't be removed. They must stay on the board and not counted.
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~wjh/go/rules/Japanese.html
diagram 17
its really bizarre. I didn't know all this about Japanese rules. I'm really starting to like AGA rules even more.
-
Kirby
- Honinbo
- Posts: 9553
- Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 6:04 pm
- GD Posts: 0
- KGS: Kirby
- Tygem: 커비라고해
- Has thanked: 1583 times
- Been thanked: 1707 times
Re: scoring eyes in seki question
xed_over wrote:Kirby wrote:macelee wrote:
Slightly modifying the original diagram. This is again a seki. Whether or not capturing the black stone at 'a' should not matter. But if white does, it gains extra points in Japanese rule. How reasonable is that?
My question is: in a real game, is the
My interpretation is that you must actually remove the stone to get the point, just like you must play the dame in the example I gave in order to get points.
Yeah, but according to the links you shared earlier, the rules say that the stones can't be removed. They must stay on the board and not counted.
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~wjh/go/rules/Japanese.html
diagram 17
its really bizarre. I didn't know all this about Japanese rules. I'm really starting to like AGA rules even more.
No, that's in line with what I'm saying:
Note: Before the end of the game, White can play A to capture the two black stones, then capture another stone which Black has to throw in.
You can get the points, but you must play to capture them.
be immersed
-
RobertJasiek
- Judan
- Posts: 6273
- Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:54 pm
- GD Posts: 0
- Been thanked: 797 times
- Contact:
-
asura
- Dies with sente
- Posts: 102
- Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2013 7:19 am
- GD Posts: 0
- Has thanked: 16 times
- Been thanked: 19 times
Re: scoring eyes in seki question
xed_over wrote:Kirby wrote:macelee wrote:
Slightly modifying the original diagram. This is again a seki. Whether or not capturing the black stone at 'a' should not matter. But if white does, it gains extra points in Japanese rule. How reasonable is that?
My question is: in a real game, is the
My interpretation is that you must actually remove the stone to get the point, just like you must play the dame in the example I gave in order to get points.
Yeah, but according to the links you shared earlier, the rules say that the stones can't be removed. They must stay on the board and not counted.
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~wjh/go/rules/Japanese.html
diagram 17
its really bizarre. I didn't know all this about Japanese rules. I'm really starting to like AGA rules even more.
It's not a big issue, because in Japananese rules you can request resumtion if you forget to capture "dead" stones in a seki. The opponent cannot gain anything when he insists the stone is no prisoner, so he might as well agree. The same applies to seki caused by forgotten dame.
-
Dusk Eagle
- Gosei
- Posts: 1758
- Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:02 pm
- Rank: 4d
- GD Posts: 0
- Has thanked: 378 times
- Been thanked: 375 times
Re: scoring eyes in seki question
Japanese rules in the book are different from Japanese rules often applied in practice. In practice, you don't have to fill all the dame or capture dead stones in seki. However, if a rule dispute occurs then you can resume the game and complete the position according to the rules before applying the rulebook to interpret a situation.
We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are.
Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.
Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.
-
RobertJasiek
- Judan
- Posts: 6273
- Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:54 pm
- GD Posts: 0
- Been thanked: 797 times
- Contact:
Re: scoring eyes in seki question
Dusk Eagle wrote:In practice, you don't have to fill all the dame
For the sake of simplicity, let us stick to the two-sided dame.
Practice differs for real world go played under the Japanese 1989 Rules (dame filling can affect the score, if the rules are applied strictly), real world go played under the World Amateur Go Championship Rules (dame filling is required), real world go played under variants of verbal Japanese rules (usually, dame filling is a custom, but the exact timing and nature varies; at the end of counting and before announcing the score, the dame should be filled), online go with Japanese server rules allowing unfilled dame (dame filling is voluntary, but - in case of especially KGS - is recommended so that server scoring mistakes do not occur and affect the score), online go with Japanese server rules requiring dame filling.
Tournament rules might prescribe alternate dame filling.
Conclusion: depending on the place of play, the used version of Japanese rules and any used server, filling two-sided dame is or is not mandatory and is or is not relevant for the score.
-
xed_over
- Oza
- Posts: 2264
- Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2010 11:51 am
- Has thanked: 1179 times
- Been thanked: 553 times
Re: scoring eyes in seki question
So then, back to the original question..
There's never a case where some set of eyes in seki would count as points? In practice, or theory?
I think in practice (irregardless of the actual rules), we would count the eyes in diagram 15 above, and not even call that a seki, right?
But in my original position, its a true seki and none of the eyes are counted then?
There's never a case where some set of eyes in seki would count as points? In practice, or theory?
I think in practice (irregardless of the actual rules), we would count the eyes in diagram 15 above, and not even call that a seki, right?
But in my original position, its a true seki and none of the eyes are counted then?
-
RobertJasiek
- Judan
- Posts: 6273
- Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:54 pm
- GD Posts: 0
- Been thanked: 797 times
- Contact:
Re: scoring eyes in seki question
Under traditional Japanese rules, right. Under quite a few (but not all) server Japanese rules, wrong.
-
oren
- Oza
- Posts: 2777
- Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 5:54 pm
- GD Posts: 0
- KGS: oren
- Tygem: oren740, orenl
- IGS: oren
- Wbaduk: oren
- Location: Seattle, WA
- Has thanked: 251 times
- Been thanked: 549 times
Re: scoring eyes in seki question
xed_over wrote:But in my original position, its a true seki and none of the eyes are counted then?
Yes.
